🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1992Aug4.231541.18630@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>>>Karl, I find you to be 'beyond the pale of decency'.  How is it that you
>>>can't tell the difference between using torture on a random, non-threatening
>>>group of people (Jews in WWII) and using it on people who are part of active
>>>organizations who may be able to help you save people's lives with a little
>>>persuasion (sp?).
>>>
>>>They (Jews) certainly do NOT do the same things that were done to them.
>>
>>What do you consider torture of other human beings to be?
>
>Not the same as torture of other human being who have never done any-
>thing to you (or to anyone else for that matter).

To my mind, that an individual being tortured is a "bad" person does not
justify that torture.

But let's also not forget that the accusation is that the Israeli's are
torturing *suspects*.  From the information I have, the "due process" used
in handling Palestinians in the occupied territories is so abysmal, you
could hardly even argue that there are any assurances that the individuals
involved are "bad" people.

Let's also not forget that the Nazi's did (and still do) *claim* that Jews
**were** (are) a menace who had committed most heinous crimes against
society--thus justifying their own actions.


>>When someone is gassed, or has their balls cut off, or is branded with 
>>hot irons, or any other form of torture..... does the form REALLY matter?
>
>No; but who the target is and what they have or have not done does.

Like I said, I don't buy this.  I also don't buy that you can demonstrate
any relevance to the question at hand (since you can't demonstrate the
"culpability" of the individuals being tortured).


>>There is NO JUSTIFICATION for torture - PERIOD.  NONE.  ZERO.  A civilized
>>country does NOT resort to this kind of "information gathering mechanism".
>>A country which does resort to these actions, whether it be Israel, Iraq,
>>China, what was the USSR, or the US is NOT a civilized country; their
>>citizens are corrupt for permitting this activity and their government 
>>is beneath contempt.
>
>All right. But you *do* have to include all the countries you mention
>above in the range of uncivilized countries, then. Are you a U.S. citizen?
>Does this mean that you are corrupt?

This I agree with.  However, silence should be considered complicity.  Those
who make no effort to speak out against and stop such unacceptable activity
can hardly claim to be free from responsibility.

Of course, there are *many* Israelis who *do* object to various activities of
the Israeli government--just as there are many Americans who object to
various activities of the US government.


>>Oh yeah, my spite towards the Israeli government for using torture as an
>>investigative technique, in violation of international law and all basis of 
>>human decency is now a hatred of Jewish people?
>
>No, although your insistence on talking only about Israel's behavior and
>ignoring the many other countries including your own that use the same
>methods is a bias against Israel. Try a little more evenhandedness.

Personally, I recognize in myself, not what I would call a "bias" but what I
would call a heightened *sensitivity* to the actions of Israel.  I speak out
and condemn various actions by many other countries, also--but, I do recognize
a particular sensitivity to Israeli actions.

I'm sure that this is, in no small part, due to the mistaken assumption by
many that "Jews," "Zionists," and "Israelis" are essentially interchangeable,
as well as the existence of very many Jews who have become completely blind to
the possibility that Israel might do anything *wrong*.

Basically, for good or for bad, Jews with views such as my own often feel the
need to specifically disassociate ourselves from Israel, and especially
certain activities of the Israeli government, lest it be (incorrectly) assumed
that we, by default, support such activities.


-- 
J. S. Greenfield                                         greeny@top.cis.syr.edu
(I like to put 'greeny' here, 
but my d*mn system wants a 
*real* name!)                        "What's the difference between an orange?"