🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <7AUG199211560533@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>
> In article <22127@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Dr. Yigal Arens) writes...
>
> Dr. Yigal Arens writes:
>
> >Excuse me, Ms. Rivkis, but does the US OFFICIALLY SANCTION torture as an
> >investigative technique?  That alone would appear to place Israel in a
> >different category.
>
> Dr. Arens seems to agree [from the context of the posting as well 
> as the "officially sanction"] that the US engages - presumably 
> when necessary [We are not talking about sadists, I presume.  One
> can never tell with Dr. Arens and Israel; perhaps he means to say
> that Israel has more sadists than other countries?  But Dr. Arens
> is usually able to state what he wants for himself.] - in covert 
> torture.  Yes, that the US engages in covert torture.
>
> His complaint is then that, unlike the covert torture of the US,
> Israel is open about its use of torture.  Is this an accusation
> of culpability?  Should Israel be covert?  Or is this an 
> accusation of cupidity?  Should Israel not try to "seem" honest
> about what it does?

I can only try to imagine why Mr. Werman is not able to figure out the
*true* reason I brought up the issue of official sanction.  For the
record, what my point was:

If torture is illegal -- even if some government individuals or agencies
ignore this prohibition at times -- it is possible to legally fight it,
to punish individuals who engage in torture, and possibly to end it.

A country that officially sanctions torture precludes such methods from
being used in fighting torture's continued use.  In fact, since it does
not even express nominal opposition to torture, one could expect its use
to be much more widespread.

In this context, it might be significant to mention that the Israeli
Landau Commission, which investigated the use of torture by the Israeli
secret service, found that it was (and SHOULD BE!) a routinely used
investigative tool, also in cases involving no terrorism, not any
violence at all.  Quotes upon request.  And here we see another
difference between Israel and the US in this regard, a difference which
Mr. Werman (and others here) are quite cynically trying to ignore, or
obscure:  In Israel torture is used ROUTINELY by the SHABAK.  I defy
anyone to demonstrate that the FBI, America's equivalent of the SHABAK,
makes routine use of torture.  Put up or shut up, Mr. Werman.

> As a matter of fact, an Israeli high court decision allowed the
> use of "reasonable force" in interrogation of security prisoners.
> I think one would have to go a long way to convert "reasonable
> force" into torture.

The way is only lengthened by the fact that the Landau Commission (it
was not a Supreme Court decision, Mr. Werman) chose to classify as
SECRET the appendix to its report wherein were specified the permitted
forms of physical torture.  Now why would they do that?  I'll tell you
why: to allow people like Mr. Werman to obfuscate the issue, that's why.
Obviously, the prisoners involved find out only too well what is
permitted -- and anyone interested can ask them.  Reports of Israeli
torture, reports that make clear what is officially permitted, have
already been posted here numerous times.  But Mr. Werman and the usual
host of Israeli apologists can continue to hide behind the classified
list and claim that the victims are exaggerating, lying, and in general
cannot be trusted.  Of course, before the Landau commission, the same
arguments were made by people like Mr. Werman to back up the official
position that no physical coercion was used AT ALL.  Then, Palestinians
were just inventing the whole thing from start to finish.  The Landau
Commission found that torture WAS, in fact, used.  So today, Mr. Werman
only needs to claim that Palestinians are exaggerating its use and
severity.  How nice.

> Perhaps Israel is singular.  I am one of those who would like
> Israel to be singular.  Most of my countrymen prefer that 
> Israel be like any other country.

Mr. Werman's desire for Israeli singularity borders on the insane, if
even the singularity of officially permitting torture of detainees is
welcomed by him.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21