🚀 go-pugleaf

	This posting is a good example of why some Americans have reservations
about referring to Israel as an "ally". Alliances are based on mutual respect
and mutual interests. Mr. Ben Ami seems oblivious to this basic principle.


In article <1992Aug5.104944.20856@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug3182009@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Aug2.112925.22708@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> markr@mot.com (Mark) writes:
>>>   In article <EGGERTJ.92Jul30165655@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>>>   >I don't understand what you mean when you say that Israel has been one
>>>   >of the USA's most steadfast allies.  Do you mean that the US has, in
>>>   >time of need, been able to go to Israel for help?  Do you mean that
>>>   >Israel has done its best to do what the US wants it to do?  Please
>>>   >explain.

	(Some old stuff deleted)

>>Militarily, Israel has developed the atomic bomb, much to the chagrin
>>of the US.  They did so in part by stealing nuclear materials from the
>>US.  They have also spied extensively on us (the Pollard case is just
>>what has been discovered and revealed).  They have been accused of
>>selling US military technology to China and South Africa.
>>Non-militarily US-Israeli trade couldn't make a fly sneeze.  The US
>>and Israel have common voting patterns in the UN, mostly because the
>>US is backing Israel on a lot of Mideast resolutions.  During the Gulf
>>war, Israel stayed out as the result of about 3 minutes of reflection
>>on the cost and benefits of bombing Iraq.
>>
>>
>>--
>>=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
>
>Well, Mr. Eggert Isreal is not yet the 51st state of the US. We are
>an independent nation. Our Atomic advance (whic is not approved
>officially) was done with the help of the French in the 50s and 60s
>before we were close to the US which was pretty indifferent till 1967

	What makes this poster say this ?? Does he believe that there
is ANYONE in the USA who wants to make Israel the 51st state ? As far as
being closer to the US after 1967, would Mr. Ben Ami kindly say what he
thinks about the REASON the USA changed its stance vis-a-vis Israel.
Was it because Israel was stronger because of the Six Day War, or was
it because Israel needed friends after the Six Day War ?

>
>As far as I'm concerned the latest accusations about China/S. Africa is
>unsubstantiated and was leaked maliciously when Arens came to Washington
>as I remember a special comittee sent to Israel found Israel innocent
>with regrad to the Patriot technology.

	The only reason these charges had any credibility is because Israel
is quite capable of this kind of double dealing. Look at Iran Contra.
	
>
>I think this "3 minutes reflection" was a gross mistake on the part of
>Israel, I see no reason why Israel shouldn't have bombed Saddam's brain
>other than consideration for US-Arab relationship. This was of course
>a complete idiocy since it is against Israel's self interest and we
>should put our security much above America's friendship with our avowed
>enemies (Assad,Husein etc.)

	Why was the expansion of the Persian Gulf war into a general, 
all-out Middle East war not a good enough reason to deter Israel from
retaliating ?? Why was not retaliating inimical to Israeli interests in
such a set of circumstances ??

>
>I'll say that in restraining itself Israel showed OBEDIENCE rather
>than consideration to American interests. This is proof that Israel
>is even more than a good ally, in this case we functioned like part
>of the united states.

	It is always useful to ask whether or not Israel gains or loses
soveriegnty by continuing a hard line position. IMHO, Israel's hard line
stances have made it much more dependent on the United States than would
otherwise be the case, much more than many Americans are very comfortable
with (We really do know deep down what a rotten, inconsistent ally we have
been in times past - just ask the Vietnamese.). 

	When the US stopped Desert Storm in front of Basra, I then rendered
the opinion that we would have to station a US armored division on the West
Bank to keep the peace. Everyone, of course, was shocked at my having said so,
and I have to admit that the peace negotiations have gotten much further
than I would have expected. But Saddam is still in power, and even though
that armored division has demobilized, the balance of forces remains not
in Israel's favor while Saddam Hussein lives. The job is not yet done,
and the current "training exercise" in Kuwait only helps to prove it.

	In the meantime, the Israelis really ought to consider the grief
the USA has taken for them, and what they might do to regain control of
their destinies. If they don't take action now, history will move along
in ways that are increasingly difficult to control. It is irresponsible
to expect the USA to indulge Israel in this way, without expecting something
in return.

	Bill R.


	"My opinions do not represent those of my employer or any
government agency."


-- 
Bill R.