🚀 go-pugleaf

> From: Mike Horne <tektronix!tekfdi.FDI.TEK.COM!mhorne@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU>
> In a recent article, HELLER@cs.umass.edu writes:
> 
> >...multi-user systems it is needed.  It is doubtful
> >that MMUs will ever be common on *little* home/office systems (i.e. ST's,
> >Amiga's, Mac's etc.) - most of these system will be running well behaved
> 
> Guess again.  In the history of '*little* home/office systems', manufacturers
> have always put the most up-to-date hardware in their machines at the time
> of development.  Since most new CPUs have built in MMUs, new computers will
> obviously have OSs that take advantage of this.  Atari, Apple, etc., aren't
> going to put Z80s in their new machines with no MMU just because someone out
> there can write a 'well behaved' program!  It's called 'computer evolution'.
> 

What I meant was I doubt the *LITTLE* machines will get the 68030 for some
time yet.  After all the Mega ST's still have 68000s.  68010's have been
around for some time now, but how many < $1000 machines have them?  Hell, I
have a $7000+ Stride 440 that is only 1.5 years old and it only has a 68000.
Stride does sell a MMU upgrade as an extra option.  Maybe I should define
"*LITTLE*" - I DON'T mean office/business systems I mean home machines - in
the under $1000 class, used mostly for games, 1-page word-processing, and
checkbook balancing!

> >I really doubt that UNIX/MINIX will ever be the O/S of choice amongst home
> >and office users:  UNIX is just too "weird" (why is the directory command
> >"ls"?  why is the type command "cat"? what is an inode? - only UNIX hackers
> >really understand UNIX).
> 
> Obviously you haven't given it much thought.  Gee, could "cat" possibly stand
> for "concatenate?"  Naaa...  Pick up a book once in a while.
> 
> Gosh, I wonder why UNIX is showing up so often as THE operating system in any
> new, state-of-the-art computer?  Even MS-DOS (yucko!) has some look/feel of
> UNIX.  
> 

*I* know that "ls" means "list short" and "cat" means concatenate.  What I
meant was that computer novices are likey to have a harder time figuring out
UNIX's command names.  Yes messy-dos does have some UNIXisms, but still the
directory command is "dir" and the file type command is "type" and the file
copy command is "copy" and the file delete command is "del", etc.  As
opposed to "ls", "cat", "cp", "rm", etc.  Haven't you ever encounted a
novice user asking stupid questions like the examples I gave?  And not be
able to give an *intellegent* answer?  Many of UNIX's commands are
non-intuitive.  Any there isn't even a *decent* on-line help facility (I
know about the *nearly* useless man command - only usefull if you know what
command you want help on - if you don't know about the man command or don't
even know what command to even use, you are totally lost).

> >Secondly, I have found that I have had little or no trouble with runaway
> >pointers totally trashing the system, at worst it just trashes the current
> >"process". Re-booting just that process is suffientent. I guess I tend to
> >write good code. Also, I have little need to run jobs in the background
> >much. I guess I am just a synchronious user. I suspect that if I had UNIX on
> >my system it would just cause an *increase* in the system overhead, because
> >I would not use enough of it to justify most of what it would supply me
> >with. I just don't have much need of forks and pipes (or even virtual memory
> >- I will be going to a 4-meg system soon, which will provide me with more than
> 
> Gee, I'd never want a Jaguar XJS.  What would I do with all that power?  Boy,
> it just doesn't make sense.  I'd much rather drive my Edsel.  Just the
> right amount of power I need...
> 
> I find it hard to believe that you are not just joking!  You obviously like
> the flavor of your foot, but I guess we all are entitled to an opinion.
> I, too, had a small system, but I learned that a UNIX type system, with 
> memory managment, Vmem, process forking, etc., unleashes power one couldn't
> dream of before.  I suggest you send your messages about things you obviously
> have no knowledge about to /dev/null.  That is, type 'cat > /dev/null'...
> 
> 

I use have been using VAXen (780s and 750s) running VMS on a daily basis for
nearly 10 years (since VMS version 0.5). I have found that VMS is far more
powerfull than UNIX. UNIX is not really a very powerfull O/S. I know that
CP/M-68K is a *very* simple O/S. I don't deny it. I run it because it was
the *least* of several "evils" in the available O/Ss for my system at the
time I bought it: p-System (barf, retch), various obscure business O/Ss
(BOS, RM/COS, Mirage, etc.), Idris (low grade UNIX), or UNIX (I would have
had to get the MMU addon and a much bigger hard disk). At the time the $350
for CP/M-68K + $170 for MINCE was a much better (and affordable) choice than
the $500+ (I don't remember exactly) MMU and the extra $1000 for a "big"
(40-50 Meg) hard disk (I got a system with a 10Meg disk). This doesn't count
the cost of UNIX (several grand) + $500 for UNIX EMACS. I probably would
also have had a hard time running UNIX with only 1Meg of RAM. At the time I
just couldn't afford it. This was 1.5 years ago. Hard disks and RAM chips
were not as cheap as they are now. Even if I could afford it I don't think I
would have gotten UNIX anyway (see below).

I just think we (the computer science community) can really do better than
UNIX. UNIX is not really user-friendly or easy learn *quickly*. I used a
SUN3 for about 2 months (not steadily) and had a very hard time using it. It
was a real pain to use. I found I could not use it for very long before
getting *extreamly* frustrated and had to take a break. About the way I felt
using the p-System (the worlds *worst* "O/S"). I'm sorry, but I just plain
hate UNIX. I guess I am just a perverse hacker. 

		Robert Heller
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