🚀 go-pugleaf

In ba.general Jeffrey Turner <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
> Merlin Dorfman wrote:
>> In ba.general Jeffrey Turner <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>Merlin Dorfman wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>>In ba.general Jeffrey Turner <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Suburbanaristic wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Disgruntled Customer <nowhere@nowhow.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Suburbanaristic <yeah_uh-hu@wohoo.com> enscribed:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I wonder if those Palis ever considered doing something other than 
>>>>>>>>sitting around all day hating the Jew.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>They figured out how to run democratic elections. Unlike American allies like 
>>>>>>>Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi-Arabia. Maybe that's why the U.S. is trying to ruin 
>>>>>>>them, like Iran and Lebanon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>They're doing a bang-up job with that democracy aren't they? Literally.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Considering Israel, backed by the U.S. and EU, is trying to strangle the
>>>>>Palestinians because they didn't like the choice made in democratic
>>>>>elections.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Apparently "strangle" = fail to send them money.  Why should we
>>>>pay them to further their declared aim to destroy our ally?  Let those
>>>>who say they support the Hamas aims send money--Iran, Syria, etc.
>>> 
>>>They tried.  Israel has stopped people at the border with cash.  Try
>>>finding some real news sometime and not the propaganda pabalum you've
>>>been watching.
>> 
>>      Iran has sent them money.  Nobody else seems to be very
>> interested in trying very hard.  I wonder why.  Could it be because
>> they like having poor, pitiful Palestinian refugees to distract
>> from their real problems at home?

> I don't know.  Why can't apologists for Israel ever stay on topic?

     The topic is why failing to send Hamas money constitutes
strangling them.  Self-sufficiency isn't in their vocabulary.
And their supposed supporters, with the possible exception of
Iran, aren't trying very hard to get the money to them.
     FWIW, I disagree with Israel not allowing Arabs/Muslims to
send money to Hamas.  That is among the best uses of the oil
money, assuming it's not going to be used to better the lot of
the average resident of the oil-rich countries.

>>>>>>Palestinians kill as many of each other as anyone else does, but of 
>>>>>>course it's *not their fault*.
>>>>>
>>>>>Because the Israelis have set up a Palestinian "Zoo" where they are
>>>>>trying to destroy them slowly and not so slowly.
>>>>
>>>>     No need for Israel to destroy them.  They are doing a superb
>>>>job of that all by themselves.  All Israel wants to do is to keep
>>>>them from killing and kidnapping Israelis while they are at it.
>>> 
>>>Yes, just keep them locked in the concentration camp and eventually,
>>>no problem.  It's quite a final solution.  No wonder you keep getting
>>>bombed.
>> 
>>      As above...a sustained campaign of civil disobedience would
>> bring them an independent state within a couple of years at the
>> most, but (1) it's not in their DNA to respond to a real or
>> perceived offense with anything but violence, and (2) many/most
>> aren't interested in a state alongside Israel but only in the
>> destruction of Israel and the occupation of the entire 
>> territory.

> How do you know, Israel has never negotiated in good faith.

     The Oslo Agreements were negotiated in good faith, and
followed by Israel, never by the PA, e.g., the PA promised to
end anti-Israel and anti-semitic propaganda in their schools
and radio/TV which they never did.  Eventually Israel got tired
of being the only party keeping the agreement so they quit as
well.
     The 2000 Camp David negotiations were carried out in good
faith, certainly by Israel and probably by Arafat as well.
Arafat turned down a really good offer for complete peace
because he thought he could do better.  He was wrong.  Too bad,
it will be a long time, if ever, before the opportunity for
that good a deal for both sides occurs again.
     BTW, what would be the motivation for Israel not
negotiating in good faith, i.e., to put on the appearance of
seeking a peaceful solution but not really wanting one?  Do
they like the current situation of continuous war?  Why
wouldn't they want a peaceful resolution on acceptable terms?
There are very few now who don't realize that Israel can't have
all three of a democracy, a Jewish state, and control of the
whole area, and the last is the one that they are willing to
give up.  

>>>>     The Palestinian govt. was making some progress towards
>>>>economic survival while they were willing to tolerate the existence
>>>>of Israel.  When they started the second intifada in 2000, of course
>>>>Israel could no longer maintain economic cooperation, and when Hamas
>>>>was elected in 2006 with the declared aim of destroying Israel, of
>>>>course the West could no longer continue the hundreds of millions
>>>>annually (most of which had gone into the pockets of Arafat and his
>>>>supporters).
>>> 
>>>All you can keep doing is hundreds of millions of lies.
>> 
>>      I.e., no response to the above paragraph.

> Because it's gobbledy-gook.  Israel was stealing Palestinian land and
> water even before the second intifada.

     I.e., no relevant response to the paragraph.  Anything Israel
does is stealing from the Palestinians in your warped view.