🚀 go-pugleaf

a_jabberwock@hotmail.com wrote:
> 
> In article <3664393E.1D143C9A@earthlink.net>,
>   Chris <lightpony@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > a_jabberwock@hotmail.com wrote:
> 
> > > But not a statistic, You can research the latest projections of the Bureau
> of
> > > the Census on the web, and find the worst countries for overpopulation are
> not
> > > Catholic, they are India, most of Asia, and parts of Africa.
> > > BHut you knew that, you just want to blame the Pope for something, to pump
> > > yourself up, don't you, Chris?
> >
> > Not really - lifting weights serves that function quite nicely. But to
> > reply to the point made, a fact and a statistic share the same ground.
> 
> But a fact cannot be used to blame the Pope without statistics to back up your
> alligations. So prove the Pope is responsable for overpopulation.

All overpopulation, or just Catholic overpopulation? And if the latter -
my assertion - then would you require that I survey all overpopulated
catholic families and determine whether it was his bulls that drove
their decisions to breed like bunnies or if they simply prefer an
unwrapped sex act to the latex variety.?

The fact is that he opposes condom usage. 

As the leader of one of the planet's largest organized religions he thus
sends a policy statement out which directly impacts the breeding choices
of his followers. You want to put a statistic to it to minimize the
impact in the face of Asian or African numbers. Go right ahead. His
words stand. And so do the burgeoning numbers of Catholics.

> > And overpopulation, whether enabled by lack of education, societal
> > mores, or religious edicts, will eventually ruin all of our collective
> > chances for survival
> 
> Probably not, It bodes ill for the overpopulated area, but the effects remain
> localized.

Really? Cripes, Look at Aids. Look at Tuberculosis. Look at Ebola. Look
at Cholera. Whether you choose to see the preceding as chemical induced,
stress induced, or viral induced illnesses is up to your reading and
medical science to argue. Know this, however, crowding increases stress
levels, minimizes sanitation, and increases disease vectors. And they
travel across borders you know, just like immigration - what goes around
comes around.  If you think you exist in a vacuum anymore, your liable
to someday be dead wrong!
 
> > a point the Pope conveniently avoids. But as
> > leader of a massive pyramid scheme, that is not surprising.
> 
> More Catholic bashing. The Pope has no power in the areas that are most
> populated.

Hey get over it - all major religions are pyramid schemes, not just
yours. And I'm not concerned with how much power he has in Asia or
Africa - just that he exercise some minute grain of common sense over
*his* followers!
 
> > > > > > > And your proof that overpopulation is bad for the world?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Er...our current environment?
> > > > >
> > > > > My current enviroment seems great, so what is your proof?
> > > >
> > > > Well we're at 6 bil planetary pop. now - projections are for 10 bil in
> > > > our lifespan...should we see it.
> > >
> > > In our lifespan? Is that our two total lifespans added, or what? And we are
> > > not 6billion, we are an estimated 5,951,297,626, but the numbers mean
> nothing
> > > without knowing the largest stable population the Earth will support with
> > > proper managment. My guess is 50 billion.
> >
> > So you want to quibble over exact numbers? Or whose lifespan?
> 
> I just prefer that you be more precise.

That is a blatant dodge from the matter under discussion. You lost
credibility there.
 
> > I was
> > referring to yours and mine - say the next 50 years, give or take. And
> > if you really believe that this planet can support 50 bil people - under
> > any management program short of closed loop pods you're absolutely
> > crackers!
> 
> Not at all. It would take the elimination of most animals, and a skimpy
> vegitarian diet, but it is mathmatically possible.

Yes we can all exist on chlorella I believe - a form of algae. I've read
all about that. What a jolly experience that will be. And as in Dune
we'd better have our body still suits set for desertification - because
that's the impending result. BTW - in the News today it is estimated
that lacking some kind of more stringent immigration policy the US
population alone will touch 1.9 billion by 2050. I'm glad that given a 
normal life span I won't be here to see that cluster f***!
 
> > > But none of it caused by Catholics, Chris. Try to stay on topic.
> >
> > You are aware that we have let this topic cover the globe - so if Africa
> > is brought up we'll discuss it in turn.
> The main point being that the catholic countries are not the problem ones, so
> the Catholic bashing on the overpopulation issue is based in you rather than
> fact.

Of course they are a problem. The top 2 or 3 , obviously not in raw
numbers. But as i said when you are looking at one of the planet's major
organized religions there is a need for intelligent leadership. The Pope
has chosen to take a divergent path. We need not excuse that action with
a data point dismissal.
 
> >
> > > > > Who, you? You are a hard core liberal, aren't you Chris?
> > > >
> > > > Er, sorry..nope...I'm a capitalist stock picking machine.
> > >
> > > Yes, a hard core Liberal one. Or is it against the code of Liberals to own
> > > stock?
> >
> > Beats me - my affiliation is Rep. party. My analysis is issue by issue.
> > My vote is almost never on party lines.
> 
> > It fits into the portion that says that any leader of any type ought not
> > discourage the use of condoms.
> 
> Why not? Should he pervert his beliefs because chris doesn't agree with them?

He might just want to see if his beliefs are fundamentally and
scientifically unsound? Why draw the narrow conclusion that *my*
personal offering is the fulcrum for *his* change. How about taking
collective charge of your faith through outreach and downloading some
common sense grass root lobbying to the Vatican?

> > That's it - simple isn't it? Less people
> > = better quality of life.
> 
> Not in all cases, but the Pope has little effect on the problem areas at any
> rate.

Study what I said. 1.9 billion in our country by 2050. Do you know where
our major immigration vector is? Do you know what the dominant faith in
Mexico and South America is? Quit trying to squirm out of *your*
responsibility!
 
> >
> > > > > > Actually what is up for grabs is the papal decrees against birth
> control
> > > > > > (how smart is that as we careen to 10 bil pop on the globe?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, the only 100% sure method of birth control is OK with the
> Pope, is
> > > > > it not?
> > >
> > > > And most provably unpracticable - eh?
> > >
> > > It's very practical, just not practiced, especially in less developed
> > > countries where people have nothing.
> >
> > I said "unpracticable" - that means not possible to practice. If it were
> > we'd surely see that sex isn't the number one human bonding activity.
> >
> > > > > Ah, yes. You like to blame people for the sins of the past, tell me,
> Chris,
> > > > > what is your past?
> > > >
> > > > I dunno - some good, some bad, and a lot of learning. I keep trying,
> > > > keep reading...you?
> > >
> > > Mostly the same, only I am looking past my own prejudices. You?
> >
> > Generally yes - occasionally no. It depends on the subject matter.
> >
> > > > > > I'm all for prayer in the home or church - just keep it
> > > > > > there.
> > > > >
> > > > > So you are against free speech? You must be a liberal.
> > > >
> > > > No I'm a centrist on domestic issues, a radical on personal liberties,
> > > > and a conglommerist when it comes to group think...
> 
> > > But how can you really mean it when you would limit free speech of a
> > > religious nature? You are just like the Church was hundreds of years ago,
> > > ready to limit the rights of those you don't agree with, hardly what I would
> > > call a "radical on personal liberties".
> 
> > I didn't say I'd limit it.
> 
> So keeping it in the home and Church is not limiting it?

*You* said I would limit it -please stop inserting quotations and
crediting me for them! If you can't win the argument based on your own
responses, and clearly you can not, admit defeat and get over it.
 
> > I just noted that it was absurd,
> > counterproductive to maintaining a decent planetary quality of life, and
> > that they really ought to join the 20 th century before it elapses. I
> > find their philosophy to be paradoxically self destructive, yet claiming
> > to offer the dispensation of eternal life.
> 
> This is a somewhat limited take on Catholicism. It has its good points and
> bad, depending on your point of view, like any faith or politically based
> system. It certainly makes as much sense as some of the things even our own
> government does.

I have a brother in law who holds that faith. He's a fine man, has a
fine family, leads a clean life, and I love him. We disagree on policy,
as you would suspect, but I do not by any means suggest that Catholics
are bad people. The very fact that they care enough to have a faith
suggests precisely the opposite. I opine, however, that their leaders
are misguided. Much of their dogma is foolish and bizarre, and that they
shirk from the responsibility of 20th century life by ignoring the issue
of overpopulation - or, as you have - pointing to the rest of the world
and saying "it ain't us".
 
> >
> > > > > > You lot scare me when you organize for more than a picnic - even then
> > > > > > the potato salad may be toxic!
> > > > >
> > > > > Me lot? What are you talking about? I'm not Catholic, Chris.
> > > >
> > > > Religious right'ers in general - born agains, Morons, Cat-lckers,
> > > > Baptists, etc.
> > >
> > > Being a radical on personal liberties again?
> >
> > Just noting the goofiness of most religions.
> 
> That is a reflection of people. Knock on wood lately? A goofy thing to do.

No I haven't. But I wear my lucky Broncos jersey for each game. And to
an extent you are spot on. People are hopelessly primal beings with
pretensions of godliness. Again I go back to the beach scene from the
movie "Contact" where Ellie meets her father. We have such lofty and
noble dreams and yet such ugly nightmares too. And when we organize it
our duty to aspire to the best, not the worst. That is the inherent flaw
in mass movements, knowing whether the goal is truth and awaking to find
the deception of human nature leads us astray
>
> > > Everybody has a religion, even if it is agnostic. What is your religion,
> > > Chris?
> >
> > Fair question. I won't claim any single faith. I was raised with the
> > Episcoplaian faith, eschewed church as soon as possible, read and
> > dabbled in TM, Buddhism, Taoism, and so on. I currently pick and choose
> > as to what seems relevant. My leaning, as a product of this society, is
> > toward Christ's actual words - not so much the disciple's reportage.
> > Which is not to say that I minimize all of it. Just that ancient texts
> > contain numerous political revisions and that core philosophies are
> > often stronger and more accurate when reduced to the initial message.
> 
> Churches can be limiting, yet there is a strong movement in the Christian
> church to do just what you are doing as it pertains to the Christ's words.
> Most modern Christians find the Catholic practices somewhat strange and
> hypocritical, and they were dangerous to many in the past, but they are
> hardly the causes of the worlds ills.

There is only one cause to the world's ills though, isn't there?

> >
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> >
> 
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