🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <4LJZoB4w164w@buscard.fidonet.org> 
murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
=> 
=> > There was nothing wrong with what you said!  Do not allow others to
=> > define you.  You are what you are and there's nothing you can do
=> > about it.  That's a favorite line of the civil rights crowd and you
=> > have every right to it yourself.  The PC crowd is hypocritical,
=> > disingenuous, and not to be taken seriously except for the fear of
=> > your life they put you in.  The lot of them are no more than
=> > cultural terrorists.

In article <JM13.92Aug7134423@bermuda.gte.com>, jm13@gte.com
(Joseph D. Morrison) writes:
=> I'm getting tired of this sort of remark about "the PC crowd". It's
=> true that there are quite a few people out there who are kind of smug
=> about being politically correct and seem to get some sort of pleasure
=> out of correcting others.
=> 
=> On the other hand, I've also met many people who are genuinely
=> bothered by the many kinds of oppression built into our society
=> (sexism, racism, etc.). 

They are so bothered by it, they find it where it doesn't exist,
and then oppress everyone else by their indignant opposition
to the oppression that they invented in order to be impressive
by their oppressive opposition to the oppression that was impressive
only by it's obscurity.

Hey.... I can understand that. We should impressively oppress
oppression whenever it impresses us. 

=> When a perfectly well-intentioned person does
=> something oppressive (because of habit, upbringing, or whatever), and
=> I notice it, I'm often put in an uncomfortable position. I can point
=> it out and run the risk of being called a cultural terrorist, or I can
=> pretend I didn't notice it and feel like an accomplice. Lose/lose.

I feel the same way. Whenever I see a well-intentioned cultural
terrorist doing something impressively oppressive (because of habit, 
upbringing, or whatever), and I notice it, I run the risk of being
called a cultural counter-terrorist, or I can pretend I didn't notice
it.... actually, maybe I didn't really notice it.

Hey.... that's it! Don't notice it. Win/win.

=> Maybe Ron Newman didn't mean anything by mentioning the "attractive
=> woman", but I support Jonathan Kamens in questioning whether there was
=> some implicit sexism in the remark. Sexism isn't an "activity that
=> evil people engage in". It's a pervasive, subtle element in our
=> society, and the only hope we have to improve things is to be
=> extremely vigilant.

Well.... some of us think that the way to improve things is to be
a lot less vigilant. Cuts out the vigilantes. There is enough overt
sexism rampant without wasting so much energy on mind reading.

=> Brian Murphy's argument above does a great disservice to those of us
=> who are trying to reduce oppression in society and in ourselves. 

Ron said that he mentioned the "attractive woman" because he noticed
her. Perhaps it was "sexist", because Ron is evidently a man and he
was wont to notice a woman (such is life), but could you please explain
to us in what way this was "oppressive"? Is it oppressive to notice that
someone is attractive, to say it, or is it oppressive to BE attractive
such that someone might notice it. Or.... in your (and Mr. Kamen's)
feebleminded reaction you equated some differentiation between sexes
(even positive) as "sexist" and then "oppression" immediately comes to
mind? Can you say "kneejerk"?

=> Sure there are some obnoxious civil rights people. Certainly there
=> are some PC jerks who haven't got a life so they go around ruining
=> everyone else's :-) 

I suppose the smiley is to try and differentiate yourself from those
people. It isn't working.

=> But there are also some people who try to live without oppressing
=> others, and who feel compelled to speak out when they think
=> they see oppression. 

I don't have any problem with speaking against oppression, but how
about thinking BEFORE speaking out. If you have to "think they see
oppression", then maybe it's not oppression, unless you're into
inventing the oppressed, the oppression, and the oppressor.
Then it's so easy.... isn't it?

=> Why not give those people a break? We're all
=> oppressive in subtle ways. 

Some not so subtle. 

=> The least we could do is think about it a
=> while.

Excellent advice.

- Bill Lambert