🚀 go-pugleaf

When I was a child I asked my father this question and he said there
was an mutual agreement to deliver each other's mail. Unfortunately I
can't check with my dad again for his sources. It sounds like the
sensible thing to do, can you imagine the accounting headache
otherwise? But I'd like to hear the real story too.

	Ken

The Universal Postal Union (UPU) treaties signed back in the late 1800's
by most (if not all) countries state that countries receiving foreign mail
will deliver it to the addressee without charge.  From my stamp collecting
days, I remember a lot of commemoratives being issued for one of the
anniversaries of the UPU.

Don Hawkins
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ
...ihnp4!mhuxd!dthk

In article <1275@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes:
>Anyhow, what I am wondering is whether, and how, the postal delivery system
>of a foreign country is reimbursed for its part in accepting, transporting,
>and delivering a piece of international paper, or parcel, mail which has
>originated in the USA, and for that matter, vice versa.  Are there treaties
>and procedures governing this, or what? 
> ....
> .... international postage must be doing something more than just
>paying the way of the mail it is attached to, to the border of the destination
>country, otherwise why higher postage to Canada and Mexico?  And surely the
>destination country's postal service isn't interested in completing the
>delivery gratis.  So what's up? 
>--

Almost all countries of the world are members of the International Postal
Federation, which was set up in the last century to deal with that exact
problem.  (Gad, I hope I have the name right!)  Prior to the establishment
of the IPF, each country had to establish separate treaties with every
other country in the world!

The IPF is basically a multi-way international treaty that says "I'll
deliver your mail if you deliver mine, and we'll settle the difference."
There are various minimum standards, such as the receiving country is
not supposed to interfere with mail to its citizens, something that
the USSR is frequntly accused of.

The IPF does not actually carry the mail.  Mail service between two
different countries varies widely --- an air-mail letter to Japan may
only take a couple days, while an air-mail letter to Poland can easily
take a month (I know).  The Polish letters pile up in New York til somebody
decides to ship them over, then the pile up in Poland for a while.
Surface mail takes even longer --- you get to add the time the letter
spends in the hold of a ship to the time the bureaucracy takes.

I don't think the IPF provides for setting the reimbursment rates.
I think what happens is the the receiving country bills the sending
country.  Actually, the rates from the US to Canada are the same for
the 1st ounce, and only 1 cent higher for additional ounces (18 vs 17
cents).  Postcards are the same rate.  I have no info on parcel post;
they may well be wildly different.

MAIL RATES
US to:
	Canada & Mexico
	1st class letter		$.22 (first ounce)
					 .18 (2nd & subsequent ozs.)
	Postcard			 .14

	Columbia, Venezuela, Central America,
	the Caribbian, Bahamas, Bermuda, St.
	Pierre & Miquelon
		Air letter		$.39 (per 1/2 oz.)
		Surface letter		 .37 (per 1/2 oz?)
		Air Postcard		 .33
		Surface postcard	 .25

	All other countries except
	Canada & Mexico	
		Air letter		$.44 (per 1/2 oz.)
		Surface letter		 .37 (per 1/2 oz?)
		Air postcard		 .33
		Surface postcard	 .25

	Aerogram			$.36 


	-Alan Jeddeloh
	Tektronix GTD
	tektronix!orca!alanj

In article <1275@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes:
>Anyhow, what I am wondering is whether, and how, the postal delivery system
>of a foreign country is reimbursed for its part in accepting, transporting,
>and delivering a piece of international paper, or parcel, mail which has
>originated in the USA, and for that matter, vice versa.  Are there treaties
>and procedures governing this, or what?  

Strangely enough, you may find the answer in the net.ham-radio group, because
we often mail QSL cards (to confirm a contact with a 'rare' country) overseas.
There is an international treaty regarding mail. I think the governing 
body is in Geneva. I do not know how payments are handled, but you can buy
what is called an International Reply Coupon (IRC) that the other end can
use to send mail back to you. Hope this helps.
David Lesher
WB8FOZ


-- 

		      decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!wb8foz
			ncoast!wb8foz@case.csnet 
		(ncoast!wb8foz%case.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA)

    	         		"SERIOUS?
		Bones, it could upset the entire percentage!"
		

In article <6379@mhuxd.UUCP> dthk@mhuxd.UUCP (D. T. Hawkins) writes:
>The Universal Postal Union (UPU) treaties signed back in the late 1800's

    I *knew I had the name wrong!

>by most (if not all) countries state that countries receiving foreign mail
>will deliver it to the addressee without charge.

    I am currently a stamp collector and follow the US postage rates fairly
    closely (c.f. my last posting).  The 2nd ounce rate to Canada is 18 cents
    (vs 17 for domestic mail).   I seem to recall in the last postage
    rate increase go-around that the 2nd ounce rate for letters to Canada 
    was expained as being required to make up a deficit in the Canadian
    reimbursment account -- the money the US gives to Canada to deliver
    stuff from the US.  Of course, I could be wrong, I didn't get the name
    of the UPU right!

	-Alan Jeddeloh
	Tektronix GTD
	tektronix!orca!alanj

> The Universal Postal Union (UPU) treaties signed back in the late 1800's
> by most (if not all) countries state that countries receiving foreign mail
> will deliver it to the addressee without charge.  From my stamp collecting
> days, I remember a lot of commemoratives being issued for one of the
> anniversaries of the UPU.

I have read that the theory behind this is that there is about the same
amount of mail going in one direction between two countries as there is
going the other direction.  So each country pays for delivering the mail
from the other country with the extra money it gets for mail going to 
the other country.

= Eric Bustad
  AT&T Bell Laboratories
  Holmdel NJ 07733-1988
  (201)949-6257
  ekb@ho3cad.ATT.COM or ihnp4!ho3cad!ekb

The original agreements setting up the International Postal Union specified
a "you deliver my mail and I'll deliver yours" arrangement, in which the
destination country handles delivery for free, in return for the source
country doing the same for mail headed the other way.  These agreements
are still essentially in effect, although there have been more recent
supplementary agreements covering compensation payments in the event that
the traffic is seriously asymmetrical.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry

In article <2203@orca.TEK.COM> alanj@orca.UUCP (Alan Jeddeloh) writes:
>In article <1275@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes:
>>Anyhow, what I am wondering is whether, and how, the postal delivery system
>>of a foreign country is reimbursed for its part in accepting, transporting,
>>and delivering a piece of international paper, or parcel, mail which has
>>originated in the USA, and for that matter, vice versa.  Are there treaties
>>and procedures governing this, or what? 

yup, well answered by Alan Jeddeloh - no comment from me.
>...  Actually, the rates from the US to Canada are the same for
>the 1st ounce, and only 1 cent higher for additional ounces (18 vs 17
>cents).  

Unfortunately it's not reciprocal - domestic rates: $.34, Canada to US
$.65.
-- 
Chris Lewis
Spectrix Microsystems Inc,
UUCP: {utzoo|utcs|yetti|genat|seismo}!mnetor!spectrix!clewis
Phone: (416)-474-1955

it would greatly surprise me if the East Germans don't make the West Germans
pay for delivering their mail.  They charge for everything else:  use of their
roads and tracks and waterways.  Of course, they don't let hardly anyone out
to use the ones in the west and gifts flow mainly only in one direction ....

If a West German goes to visit the East (don't know about other nationalities),
he has to exchange a certain amount of money for every day he plans to stay
there and at a ridiculous rate (25% of what I could get at a western bank)
and the amount is anything but trivial.  but I am getting side-tracked ...

I would nearly expect that there is a totally uneven mail-flow to Mexico and
many other countries also and that those countries insist on getting
compensated.

In article <21937@rochester.ARPA> ken@rochester.UUCP (Comfy chair) writes:
>....  mutual agreement to deliver each other's mail. 
>	Ken

This certainly seems the most likely, a letter posted in the UK will be
delivered even if it carries another countries stamp. I don't know if the
stamp value is checked or not.


Craig.
-- 
UUCP:	 ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!craig| Post: University of Lancaster,
DARPA:	 craig%lancs.comp@ucl-cs          |	  Department of Computing,
JANET:	 craig@uk.ac.lancs.comp           |	  Bailrigg, Lancaster, UK.
Phone:	 +44 524 65201 Ext. 4146   	  |	  LA1 4YR
Project: Cosmos Distributed Operating Systems Research Group

In article <4237@ut-ngp.UUCP>, werner@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) writes:
> If a West German goes to visit the East (don't know about other
> nationalities), he has to exchange a certain amount of money for every
> day he plans to stay there and at a ridiculous rate (25% of what I
> could get at a western bank) and the amount is anything but trivial.
> but I am getting side-tracked ...

As I remember, I had to exchange about $20 for the one day I was there, and
it seemed like a reasonable rate (although I could have gotten much more
by exchanging it "informally"...)

	Wayne

In article <532@comp.lancs.ac.uk> craig@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Craig Wylie) writes:
>This certainly seems the most likely, a letter posted in the UK will be
>delivered even if it carries another countries stamp. I don't know if the
>stamp value is checked or not.

Is this because the stamps are officially honored, or because they just
slip by?  US stamps are phosphor "tagged" so they glow green under short-wave
UV.  I think it is short wave --- the wavelength used to erase EPROMs,
anyway.  In the US, most letters go through high-speed "facer-cancellers"
which look for the green glow.  Letters without a glowing spot are kicked
out for manual handling.  There is also a human operator, who is supposed
to check for the correct rate as the letters go by, but they are, after
all, human.

Are UK stamps tagged, also?  I think they are, but I only collect US, and
don't follow the rest of the world too much.

Are we getting somewhat afield of the purpose of this newsgroup?  Probably.
-- 

	-Alan Jeddeloh
	Tektronix GTD
	tektronix!orca!alanj

In article <2203@orca.TEK.COM> alanj@orca.UUCP (Alan Jeddeloh) writes:
| Almost all countries of the world are members of the International Postal
| Federation, which was set up in the last century to deal with that exact
| problem.  (Gad, I hope I have the name right!)  Prior to the establishment
| of the IPF, each country had to establish separate treaties with every
| other country in the world!
| 
| The IPF is basically a multi-way international treaty that says "I'll
| deliver your mail if you deliver mine, and we'll settle the difference."
| There are various minimum standards, such as the receiving country is
| not supposed to interfere with mail to its citizens, something that
| the USSR is frequntly accused of.
| 
	These treaties are so much to everyones advantage that the
recipient country will guarantee to deliver insured mail. --- there
is an Italian professor of politics who is single-handedly trying to
bankrupt the Soviets...
	The scheme is this: pick a `well known' Soviet dissident
and send him letters of encouragement insured, and requiring proof of
delivery.  When after a few months you still have not had your confirmation
of delivery, wander down to your post office and collect your insurance
(say $200).  Your post office will then claim it back from the SU
-- 
Regards,
	Andrew Macpherson.  <andrew@tcom.stc.co.uk>  {backbone}!ukc!stc!andrew

"Sometimes a majority simply means all the fools are on one side"
	--- Christian Science Monitor

In article <21937@rochester.ARPA> ken@rochester.UUCP (Comfy chair) writes:
>When I was a child I asked my father this question and he said there
>was an mutual agreement to deliver each other's mail.

The only relevant info. I can supply is that
a)	there was an agreement (called `The International Postal Convention'
	I think) in 1875 or thereabouts concerning DELIVERY of international
	mail, I dunno if this covered reimbursement, though.
	(BTW: this little gem was gleaned from a recent USEN*X paper!)

b)	The PTTs (phone companies to Americans) used to (and probably still do)
	have an agreement to reimburse at some certain notional date
	each year. (I guess the CCITT hjandles this).
	(Another funny: they used to do it in `Old Gold Francs', even recently!)

I would guess that there is a convention about this for post,
but thats as far as I know.

	XXX
-- 

		Dave Lukes. (...!inset!dave)

``Fox hunting: the unspeakable chasing the inedible'' -- Oscar Wilde

In article <1057@bute.tcom.stc.co.uk> andrew@stc.UUCP (Andrew Macpherson) writes:
>	These treaties are so much to everyones advantage that the
>recipient country will guarantee to deliver insured mail. --- there
>is an Italian professor of politics who is single-handedly trying to
>bankrupt the Soviets...
>	The scheme is this: pick a `well known' Soviet dissident
>and send him letters of encouragement insured, and requiring proof of
>delivery.  When after a few months you still have not had your confirmation
>of delivery, wander down to your post office and collect your insurance
>(say $200).  Your post office will then claim it back from the SU

Oh dear! This appears to be another of these apocryphal stories. [Like the
woman who put her poodle in the microwave to dry it after a bath.] When I
heard it, the story was that a group of anti-Soviet protesters were doing
this throughout Europe. I believe it was even published in the "Daily Mail"
(not that I'd read such a Tory rag), so it must be true...... :-) :-)

		Jim