🚀 go-pugleaf

Date: Wed, 4 Dec 85 00:14 EST
From: SECRIST%OAK.SAINET.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: FIGIL letters and Yet Another ET-FIG Newsletter
Organization: Science Applications Int'l. Corp., Oak Ridge, Tenn.
Geographic-Location: 36 01' 42" N, 84 14' 14" W
X-VMS-Mail-To: ARPA%"UMFORTH%WEIZMANN.BITNET@WISCVM.Arpa"


>       From:           F.I.G.I.L.  <UMFORTH%WEIZMANN.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
>       Subject:      Figil letters
>       To: Richard Secrist <SECRIST%OAK.SAInet.MFEnet@LLL-MFE.arpa>
>
>       Date: 11 Nov 85 21:24:58 GMT
>       From: ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!cray!hrp@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu  (Hal Peterson)
>       Organization: Cray Research Inc., Mendota Heights, MN
>       Subject: Re: SPECIAL FIGIL POSTING
>
>       In the newsletter contained in the above posting, Richard Secrist
>       refers to the Novix NC4000 as:
>       >  ... the first  chip
>       >  which directly implements a high-level computer language in silicon.
>       Though I'm not certain, I believe a group at MIT developed a chip which
>       directly implemented SCHEME (yet another LISP dialect) in silicon, and
>       they did it in 1980, give or take a couple of years.  I know that Guy
>       Steele, currently of Tartan Labs, was in on the project, and I think
>       that Gerry Sussman, an MIT professor, was there too.  What I'm not sure
>       of is whether it was a direct or microcoded implementation.  Anybody
>       out there know?  Anybody care?
>       --
>       Hal Peterson / Cray Research / 1440 Northland Dr. / Mendota Hts, MN
 55120
>       UUCP:  ihnp4!cray!hrp           phone:  (612) 681-3085


Hal -

Although  to  my  knowledge  this   is   the   first   actual   direct
implementation of a higher level language as a chip's machine language
per se, this was probably a bit of a brash statement  without  further
research.   Over  the  years  I  have  heard of a number of microcoded
attempts at a language-engine.  The only one that come to mind at  the
moment  was  a Pascal engine that the Western Design Center crreated a
number of years ago during the big Pascal craze.  I think the  project
wasn't  a  success  in the marketplace, or maybe worse...  can someone
fill us in ?  I for one would like to hear of such efforts if you  run
into some facts.  It looks like I could use some enlightenment.

Richard
SECRIST%OAK.SAInet.MFEnet@LLL-MFE.Arpa

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>       Date:  November 26, 1985
>       From:  Tamir (UMFORTH@WEIZMANN.BITNET)
>       Subject:  Forth on an Apple II or //
>
>       I'd like to hear from Apple user's out there as to what system they are
>       running on the Apple 2 family.  I use Micro-Motion's Forth-79.  It has
>       several distinct disadvantages, some of which were dealt with I think
>       by the new release MasterForth (Forth-83).   There was an interesting
>       implementation which I was considering called SKYFORTH, priced very
>       competitively and with standard Forth conventions and extensions for
>       the Apple, + full use of a standard DOS (3.3 or Diversi-Dos
>       compatible!).  For me this was a big advantage (though I realize some
>       Forther's are wedded to the idea of standard Forth Screens).    Anyone
>       have an practical experience with SkyForth??? Remarks on other
>       implementations are welcome as well.
>
>       Thanks.
>       Tamir Weiner (moderator of FIGIL)

Tamir -

[ Micromotion (F83; DOS) ]

I too have munged for many hours on MM F79.  I took the MM upgrade  to
F83,  and  although it's nice and comes with printed source listings I
was turned off VERY quickly when I found out they went back  on  their
no-license-fee  policy  of their F79 years.  It's like $500/image now,
public domain or not.  No thanks !  One of the things FORTH  needs  is
people  donating  applications  and such to the public domain and this
doesn't help a bit.  Nice implementation though - fast, DOS interface,
graphics, etc..


[ F83-X (F83; DOS) ]

An alternative from the Orange County FIG is that Wil Baden has ported
Laxen and Perry's F83 to the Apple ][.  I haven't had any real time to
play with it yet, but the manual says that it is a  Forth-83  standard
system  which  includes a TurdStar-like full screen editor, assembler,
debugger, LO-RES graphics demos and other utilities.  You can  compile
minimal systems and I think the source is included, It's available for
$25 from Offette Enterprises (check their ad in  the  last  couple  of
FORTH DIMENSIONS).


[ MVP (F79; direct access) ]

I've got MVP.  Sigh.  It's a pity someone wouldn't put some more  work
behind  (or  should  I  say 'on top of') this system - editors and the
like - because otherwise it's  a  really  portable  environment.   The
basis  is  there for something great - public domain and all - but not
worth the money anymore.  (By the by, I got an object with the  expert
system package.  Could anybody net-mail me the source code files ?)


[ GraFORTH/TransFORTH (Mutt;DOS) ]

As a FORTH people throw asparagus  all  over  this  product  from  the
apparantly  defunct  Insoft  company.   It's not really fig, nor 79...
but GraFORTH is one helluva a graphics package...  very impressive, or
so  I  thought.  Really nice machine support - 3D HIRES graphic shapes
that are TRIVIAL to make.  Things  can  rotate  and  fly  around,  and
multiplee things can do this.  Not really fast, mind you, but slick.


[ LMI Z80 FORTH (F83; CP/M-80, ProDOS) ]

Strangely enough I bought his for use on my Apple under CP/M.  I  want
their  other  products - this thing is nicely done.  Excellent doc.  A
full glossary of words WITH examples.  A nice TurdStar  clone  editor,
Memory  maps, hints...  a real PRO job.  I can only imagine what their
ProDOS version is like.  This is what we buy when we have a job to  do
in  FORTH...   as  does  everyone  in  our FIG chapter who doesn't use
polyFORTH  for  their  professional  projects.    Recommended.    Also
available  for a host of other micros including 8088s,68Ks, and 8080s,
to name a few.


[ UniFORTH (F83, ProDOS) ]

UniFORTH comes in two flavours - the public-domain  sampler  which  is
alleged  to be out there in BBS land someplace (also available for $35
from Unified Software Systems) or their  full  'Professional'  system.
Comes  with  a ton of utilties and a full-screen editor and the source
to all of it.  We've got this  product  on  on  VAX  and  it  is  even
supposed  to  support  text-file  I/O.  If I can ever get ahold of the
sampler for the Apple (or CP/M) I'd probably have nice things  to  say
about  it.   (Help  me find it, folks !) It's also available for about
everything...  from the VAXen and PDP-11, to the 68K, IBM-PC, and soon
even  thee Commodore-64.  This would be neat because then I could have
the same F83 implementations on all of my machines...


                               -=***=-


So - more commentary ?  I'd like to hear more  about  SkyFORTH,  other
FORTHs  for  the Apple - particularly under ProDOS - and some opinions
from you CP/M folks.

Oh - my 'tell me about your public domin FORTHs' survey was largely  a
bust.  I have some information I gathered though that I will post Real
Soon Now.

Richard
SECRIST%OAK.SAInet.MFEnet@LLL-MFE.Arpa




And now for Yet Another ET-FIG newsletter...


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Excerpts from the ET-FIG News                    Posting #4 in a series

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volume 1, Number 4  **  East Tennessee FORTH Interest Group  **  09-Nov-84
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


            * Software Review: C64-Forth for the Commodore 64 *
                             by Norman E. Smith

 There IS at least  one  good  Forth-79  available  for  the  Commodore-64.
 C64-Forth  from  Performance  Micro  Products,  of  770  Dedham Street-S2,
 Canton, Mass.  02021.  The recent update of the product  includes  a  full
 screen  editor,  a 6502 macro assembler, and extentions for strings, point
 math, and graphics; it also supports the Commodore-64 disk file system.

 C64-Forth supports  up  to  four  Commodore-1541  disk  drives.   Properly
 interfaced  IEEE-488  disks  and  printers are also supported.  Words that
 emulate most of the Commodore Basic I/O functions are  included.   Screens
 are  stored as normal BASIC sequential files; one screen per file.  Any of
 the standard Commodore file  types  may  be  read  or  written  using  the
 supplied  words.   Some of the I/O word extentions are OPEN, GET , PRINT ,
 and CLOSE.  The user need not worry about the details of  programming  the
 Commodore's  I/O.   One  other  note  relating  to  I/O;  I  could not get
 C64-Forth to operate with an 80-column video adapter.  This is not  a  big
 minus, but limits some business applications.

 A sample of the built in graphics words include ARC to draw arcs (circles,
 etc.),  BCL and BSET to clear and set bits of the high resolution graphics
 screen, FILSCRN to fill the screen with a specified color, and many  more.
 A  sprite  editor  is included in the user's manual as an example of using
 some of the graphics words.  Most of the graphics routines  are  coded  in
 Forth assembler.  They are not separately loadable though.

 The floating point routines are patterned after the routines in  Commodore
 Basic  and are coded in Forth assembler for speed, and are included in the
 baseline Forth.  Most of the math words the  integer  words  preceeded  by
 'FP'.   For  example,  integer  multiply  is  '*';  while a floating point
 multiply is 'FP*'.

 The compliment  of  string  words  generally  follow  those  available  in
 Commodore-64  BASIC.   Normal  Forth  words are prefixed with a '$'; so $!
 stores a string at the  address  on  the  stack.   The  string  words  are
 included in source screens.

 A M6502 macro assembler is  part  of  C64-Forth.   It  includes  the  same
 structured   constructs   as  normal  Forth.   All  addressing  modes  are
 supported.  It is included for those words that are just not  fast  enough
 in  high  level  Forth.   It  also provides a convient way to call the ROM
 routines available in the Commodore-64.   The  assembler  is  included  in
 source form.

 C64-Forth has a full screen editor that provides basic  editing  functions
 to  edit  source screens.  The main feature it lacks is the ability to cut
 and paste lines.  Changes can be discarded, updated in memory, flushed, or
 flushed  and  loaded.   The  editor is included as the last portion of the
 Forth dictionary so it can be deleted prior to building  applications  for
 some  additional  memory  savings.   This editor is more than adaquate for
 editing Forth programs.

 The documenation  is  excellent.   It  provides  a  small  but  relatively
 complete  tutorial, not only on using standard Forth-79 words, but each of
 the extentions as well.  The Forth tutorial  does  not  replace  "Starting
 Forth", but is very complete and clearly written.

 C64-Forth is an excellent product  for  developing  turnkey  applications.
 C-64  Forth  includes  both  SAVESYSTEM and SAVETURNKEY words.  SAVESYSTEM
 saves a new version of Forth as currently compiled.  This keeps  you  from
 having  to  re-compile  an  application  every  time you load Forth during
 development.  Debugged portions of a program can be saved to  cut  session
 startup time.  The SAVETURNKEY saves the final Forth application, breaking
 the  link  with  the  outter  interperter.   Once  this  link  is  broken,
 Performance Micro Products charges no royality on programs developed using
 C64-Forth.  There are a couple of negative points though.  The disk  drive
 on  the  Commodore-64  is  VERY  slow.  You don't notice this much editing
 screens, but compiling  a  large  program  requires  patience  !   Another
 problem is that the most recent version uses more memory.  In terms of the
 slow disk, this brings up  about  the  only  complaint  I  have  with  the
 implementaion.   The  original version was about 15k, and took long enough
 to load.  The update is 26k -- which takes  FOREVER  to  load.   For  this
 reason,  I  use the updated version when I require all the extra features,
 but use the original version most of the time.

 In summary, about the only thing missing is a meta-compiler.  If you  have
 a  Commodore-64,  C64-Forth  by Performance Micro Products is an excellent
 package.  [nes]



        * FORTH TO PLAY MAJOR ROLE IN SPACE MANUFACTURING FACILITY *

 FORTH is to play a critical role in making the first orbital manufacturing
 facilities  a  reality.   Recently  FORTH,  Inc.   completed  porting  its
 polyFORTH product to  the  Motorola  68000  and  Intel  SMP  8085  systems
 selected  for  use  in  the  Electrophoresis  Operations  in  Space  (EOS)
 experiment.

 The EOS project uses a  continuous  flow  electrophoresis  device  in  the
 weightlessness  of  space to seperate biological components such as cells,
 enzymes, and hormones from mixtures sent into orbit.  These materials  can
 then  be  used to produce pharmaceutical products of a purity never before
 possible.  It is believed that such processing abilities could lead to new
 discoveries on a par with the Salk polio vaccine.

 The McDonnell Douglas Astronautics company is primary contractor  for  the
 5,000  pound device, which is to be installed in the space shuttle's cargo
 bay and activated on orbit.

 FORTH, Inc.   wrote  the  operating  system  software  and  implemented  a
 majority  of  the low-level I/O routines for the space factory.  McDonnell
 Douglas engineers are now developing  real-time  tasks  in  the  polyFORTH
 environment  to  control  the  entire  electrophoresis  process as well as
 monitor the overall status of the factory module.

 Robert Wood, lead EOS software engineer  for  McDonnell  Douglas,  further
 explains his choice of FORTH for the project:  "We are very impressed with
 polyFORTH.   The  polyFORTH  multi-programmer   [environment]   simplifies
 real-time  control  development.   One  or more asynchronous tasks control
 each factory subsystem, reducing complexity and minimizing the  effect  of
 performance   [degradation]   or   functional   changes.   FORTH's  unique
 interpreter allows us to develop code quickly and debug it on  the  actual
 flight hardware at normal operating speeds.  By using FORTH, we are saving
 time and money, two critical factors in profitable space  operations.   We
 have committed to using FORTH throughout the EOS project."

 Elizabeth Rather, president of FORTH, Inc.  is pleased to be participating
 in  the  program,  saying that the EOS facility is "a classical example of
 [the] real-time applications for which polyFORTH was designed".

 The first model of the EOS device was flown for  the  first  time  on  the
 fourth  shuttle  flight  in  June  1982.  If the remaining flight tests go
 equally well, the Forth-based production unit could be in Earth  orbit  by
 1987.  [rcs]

    -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

                        * ET-FIG NEWSLETTER STAFF *

                       Editor: Richard Secrist
                Staff Writers: Norman Smith, Richard Secrist
                   Publishing: Joseph Minarick
                    Treasurer: Steven A. Wallace


                   * SAIC VAX/PDP-11 FIG-FORTH UPDATED *

 Richard Secrist and myself implemented the PDP-11 Fig-Forth on a VAX about
 9  months  ago.  It was a "lunch time" project spread out over a couple of
 months.  It currently includes the assembler, editor, and  string  package
 from  the  "PDP-11  Forth User's Guide" by John S.  James.  The manual was
 purchased along with the FIG listings and is necessary to create a  usable
 Forth  system  because  it  includes  the editor, assembler, and hints for
 integrating Forth with PDP-11 file systems.

 The editor is line oriented.  It is strange until you get used to the  way
 it operates, then seems quite natural.  I deceided to implement the editor
 that is included in the User's Guide for one very good  reason;  it  is  a
 full  line  editor  is  just  4  screens!   Since  we  entered it with the
 Bootstrap Editor (ET-FIG Newsletter, Vol.  1, Number 2) the  size  of  the
 actual  source  code  was  a big consideration!  By way of comparison, the
 standard "Forth, Inc." type line  editor  published  in  Forth  Dimensions
 Volume 3, No.  3 is 18 screens long !  The only deficiency with it is that
 I have never been  paticularly  fond  of  its  lack  of  a  "delete  line"
 function.   You moved to the start of the line to be deleted, then deleted
 64 characters.  Yuck.  So recently I finally got around to adding a Delete
 Line command.

 Screen 18, listed below, is the Forth source code for DL (Delete Line).  [
 Note:   I'll  have  to key this in from hardcopy later for the FIGIL folk.
 Look for it RSN.  -- rcs ] Usage is simple.  The DL word  takes  the  line
 number  to  be deleted from the stack, calculates the address of the start
 of the line within the block being edited, then moves  64  spaces  to  the
 line.  For example, type:

 10 DL

 to delete line 10.  The editor numbers lines from 0 to 15.

 The update is very minor, but adds to the overall usefullness of  our  Fig
 implementation  quite  a  bit.   If  you have access to one of the several
 copies we have distributed, you  will  have  to  modify  the  load  screen
 (number  1)  to  include  DL with your editor.  Screen 18 should be loaded
 after screen 8.  Also, be sure to add a note to  your  documentation  that
 there is now a DL command in the editor.

 We have several other updates in the works, although it takes a  while  to
 get to them since this is still a "lunchtime" project for us.  See Richard
 Secrist or Norman Smith if you are interested in a  distribution  copy  of
 our  VAX/PDP-11  Forth.   Manuals  are  available  directly from the Forth
 Interest Group.  [nes]


                  * ET-FIG NEWSLETTER WRITERS GUIDELINES *

 [ I don't know how appropriate this is for FIGIL, but I left  it  in  with
 the hopes that some other FIGish organization might find it usable in some
 way.  -- rcs ]


 The ET-FIG Newsletter solicits articles from members of our chapter of the
 Forth  Interest Group.  We want the newsletter to be a quality publication
 with a consistently high technical content.  This is best acheived through
 member  participation.   If you have an idea for an article, the following
 paragraphs will help get you started.

 The first three issues have been written by Richard and myself.   We  will
 eventually run out of ideas.  We try to put together one main article of 1
 to 3 pages along with one or two article of half to a full page,  as  well
 as  FIG  related  news.   A typed page is 55 lines of 65 characters.  This
 translates to about two or three hand-written single spaces pages.

 Small Forth words make good articles.  The Bootstrap Editor is an example.
 It  is  useful  and  small  (1 screen).  We will be adding reviews of both
 Forth books and Forth implementations as regular  monthly  features.   The
 membership  database shows a tremendious variety of Forths, so there is no
 shortage of possible reviews from within our group.

 Articles should of course be Forth related.  If Forth words are  involved,
 they  should be generic as possible.  We would appreciate machine readable
 manuscripts, and are capable of processing the following formats :

  o  VAX/PDP-11:  text files - 800/1600 bpi tape, RL02 disk pack,  or  RX01
     floppy,

  o  Apple  ][,][+,//e:   a  variety  of   Apple   file   types   including
     Applewriter, Magic Window, or generic ASCII text files,

  o  CP/M-80:  Wordstar, Perfect Writer, Roff, or ascii  text  file;  5.25"
     single sided formats - Kaypro, Morrow, Osborne, Xerox 820, Lobo Max80,
     or Apple

  o  Commodore-64:  Easy Script, Word Writer, Speed Script, or Quick  Brown
     Fox.

  o  MS-DOS:  IBM-PC DSDD format  floppies,  including  Wordstar  and  text
     files


 Please include pertinent data, such as filename, which editor was used  to
 create the text, etc..  A hardcopy listing is also helpful.

 Even handwritten  articles  are  fine,  as  long  as  they  are  readable.
 Manuscripts  should  be  double  spaced  with your name at the top of each
 page.  (You DO want credit, don't you ?!) The deadline for articles is two
 weeks  before  each monthly meeting.  We try to mail the newsletter mailed
 about a week prior  to  meetings.   Spelling  corrections  will  be  made.
 Editing will be kept to a minimum unless otherwise requested.  We are more
 interested in the content than the grammer.

 Main articles are the real challenge.  So far the main  article  has  been
 related  to  group  meetings  and activities.  We realize that this is not
 always possible.  If you have an idea for a main article, give it a  shot!
 Ideally  our  main  article should be 2 to 4 pages long.  If you need more
 space, by all means use it!  Neat Forth words are welcomed by all readers,
 as are your experiences in getting that new Forth up and running.

 Don't feel left out if you are a beginner.  Your experiences are needed to
 help  the  other  beginners  out (and we do have some, so don't be shy !).
 Everyone had to learn Forth once (or twice)  !   Experienced  members  can
 relate  and  may  be  able  to  answer  your  questions  as  part of group
 discussions.  Even if you just have a good idea for an article  and  don't
 want  to  write  one, let us know!  We may be able to find someone to turn
 your input into an article.

 Book reviews should be Forth related.  They should be a  half  to  a  full
 page  in  length.   (At least that is what we think now.  We will know for
 sure after we  have  a  few  examples.)  The  reviews  should  inform  the
 newsletter  reader  of  several  things.  The first is style.  Is the book
 readable and informative ?  Does the book properly  address  its  intended
 audience  ?   What is the intended audience ?  Did you like the book ?  We
 want to start running book reviews in  the  next  issue.   Are  there  any
 volunteers please ?

 Forth  reviews  should  comment  on  the   overall   useability   of   the
 implementation   being   reviewed.   Rate  the  documentation.   Does  the
 documentation answer your questions ?  Is  it  indexed  ?   Are  reference
 cards  for  the editor and/or Forth included ?  How easy is getting to the
 point of doing useful work ?   What  is  included:   a  screen  editor,  a
 de-compiler,  an  assembler,  etc.,  and  describe any extensions for your
 machine or environment.  The suggested length is one to  three  pages.   A
 three  page  review  will  probably be used as a main article.  This issue
 contains our first Forth review, C64-Forth by Performance Micro  Products.
 Hopefully,  it will be both informative to readers and serve as an example
 for future Forth reviews.  There are more than enough versions of Forth in
 our local group that there should be no shortage of reviews.

 If multiple articles are received,  the  ones  that  are  closest  to  the
 current  meeting  topics  will  be printed first; with others published in
 future issues.  It would be great to have enough articles on  hand  for  a
 couple  of  issues  !  Because this is a volunteer effort, trying to write
 all of these article as well as put everything together, copy it, and mail
 it  is  a  big task.  Your submission can help us get done earlier and get
 the ET-FIG news letter out to you sooner.

 Remember, the lengths for articles/reviews are just guidelines.   We  want
 to publish a variety of information within our self-imposed restriction of
 a ten page maximum issue size (it works out to one  ounce  and  hence  one
 stamp).   If  you have an article that takes 5 or 6 or even 10 pages to do
 it justice, don't let our article  size  guidelines  stop  you.   We  will
 figure out a way to get in the newsletter !  [nes]



----------  END OF FIGIL DIGEST MAILING  ----------------------------
Acknowledge-To: F.I.G.I.L. <UMFORTH@WEIZMANN>