🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1142@tekigm2.UUCP> wrd@tekigm2.UUCP (Bill Dippert) writes:
>In article <405@uwmacc.UUCP>, oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes:
>> In article <1128@tekigm2.UUCP> wrd@tekigm2.UUCP (Bill Dippert) writes:
>> >From the sounds of recent messages, I am not the only one who would rather be
>> >using an Atari at work rather then an IBM.  Whether a ST or a XE/XL is, I
>> >think, a moot point.
>> 
>>    I don't think it's such a moot point.
>> 
>> 
>>    As a workstation, the 8-bit Atari lacks one thing that is essential: 80
>> characters per line.  Unless things have changed since I bought an 8-bit
>> Atari, you still need to get "a special card."  Color is nice (I don't like
>> doing without it), but that's just icing on the cake for a workstation.
>You have two choices here:  one buy the new XEP80 80 column adapter device or
>two, buy software that allows 80/132 wide screens (with horizontal scrolling).

You just destroyed your original argument: that IBM's were bad things because
you had to buy add-ons all the time, and that you didn't have to do that
for Atari 8 bit machines...

>>    But what about the capabilities as a microcomputer, you ask?  Well, the
>> IBM has the 8-bit beat here, too.  Say you want to hook a standard printer
>> up to your 1200XL; what do you do?  Call mail-order place after mail-order
>> place, trying to find somebody who knows what kind of cable you need; then
>> pay $59.95, only to discover that the 1200XL is different somehow than the
>> rest of Atari's 8-bit machines, so you have to go through the whole cycle
>> again.
>While I was no getting into modems, I will admit that you need an 850 interface
>for almost anything, be it modem or printer.  (Or another 850
>equivalent--except that Atari is providing an RS232 port on the new XEP80 for
>printer or whatever.  

And how many companies do you think make/support serial (RS232) printers
as opposed to Centronix style parallel printers...?

>And trying to find cables to connect a IBM into anything
>as simple as a Epson printer can be just as much a pain.  I have an easier time
>locating Atari cables then IBM cables unless I go to mailorder.

Are you serious? The Centronix parallel cable with a DB25 connector has
got to be *the* most common cabling connection available...

>> And speaking of software, the IBM has just about every micro I know about
>> beat cold in both public domain software and commercial software, in both
>> quality and quantity.  That may be only because of the perceived usage of
>> the respective machines, but frankly, I would not even *think* of trying
>> to market a serious program for the 8-bit Atari, if only because of what
>> I know about the, um, "habits" of local Atari users with regard to software
>> piracy.
>I think that there is as much public domain software out there for the Atari 8
>bitter as there is for IBM. 

...um, again, I ask: are you serious? Atari 8 bits may have a lot of software,
but nowhere near the about IBM PC/XTs do. There is a book published that lists
useable PD software for the IBM, sources, and where to find it. It is 1210
pages of very, very tiny print...

> And the software that you buy at the dealer (read:
>commercial software) is a heck of a lot cheaper for Atari then IBM.  Although
>they are getting closer!

Well, that's true. IBM software has always been *way* out of line, because
IBM knows there are a lot of niave people (and business people) who will,
and have been, pay for it.

>> There's a guy who gets pissed when, for example, Analog states
>> that there isn't much Atari software because of piracy, but who has a
>I agree that piracy is deplorable, but I doubt that anyone does not have some
>pirated software. 

...excuse me?

> My feeling is that if it is still available at the dealer,
>then you should pay for it.  (Dealer being anything from your local computer
>store, to mailorder, to the publisher of the software).  But, and this is a big
>but, if it no longer is available anywhere legitimately, then I will used a
>socalled "pirated" copy. 

Yea, and if I want out-of-print books, I usually rip them off from
the library, rather than looking for them in used book stores...

> This generally applies to games, as they seem to be
>the most pirated software.  I don't think that I have ever seen real useful
>software pirated (ala Syncalc, SynFile, etc.), these are currently available
>and are reasonably priced so there is no incentive to pirate them.  Or am I
>being undully naive?

You are undully niave...


>
>At anyrate, getting back to my original discussion:  I have purchased AW+,
>SynCalc, SynFile, SynGraph, etc. and they would suit my "business" needs just
>as well as the software I have at work for my IBM-XT.  Maybe I don't have quite
>the memory available, but it is adequate for what I need.  There is even a form
>of CAD available now for the XE (albeit somewhat crude).  So I say that the
>XL/XE series are just as useful in business as the ST (unless you really need
>the .5 -- 1 Meg of memory).  [And the 130XE can be pumped up  to 1 MEG if you
>need it!]

Give me a break! So, try writing/using something where machine precision
counts...it should be, for instance, relatively easy for an 8-bit computer
to miss connecting the lines of a triangle, because the calculation had
a huge precision error in it. Or, in large business applications, how much of
a spread sheet do you think you could fit into 64K or 128K? The real world
has more uses for a computer than balancing checkbooks...

>
>> Short digression:  Owners of 8-bit machines can take that as snobbery
>> if they wish (somebody always does, regardless of how tactfully it's
>> expressed), but it's a plain and simple fact that the 8-bit microprocessor
>> is nowhere near the present state of the art in cheap microcomputing.
>> For some uses, the 8-bit micros can perform as well as the owner of the
>> machine wants or expects it too; however, I personally could not tolerate
>> using most of today's 8-bit offerings for the kind of things I do, both
>> here at the office and while "playing" at home.
>Not snobbery, but your only advantage is memory and possible IBM
>compatibility.

...sigh...


Don't get me wrong, but I have both an IBM XT and an Atari ST. The ST is
superior to the XT (even though I have the XT "suped-up") in almost
every way, shape and form. But if you believe that any 8 bit machine 
is every bit as useable as a 16 bit machine, you must not use the machine
for anything more than hobby computing...

...and if that sounds snobbish, I apologize...but I think, per chance, that
it is true...

-- 
                           --- Rob DeMillo 
                               Madison Academic Computer Center

	usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo
	ARPA:   demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu    (now isn't that easier?)

		----------------------------------------
	"I am not so sure
	 what you want me for!			'War Games'
	 Either your machine is a 		   - Crosby, Stills and Nash
	 fool, or me..."