🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <423@uwmacc.UUCP>, demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes:
===>Much deleted from Rob's previous posting<===
> You just destroyed your original argument: that IBM's were bad things because
> you had to buy add-ons all the time, and that you didn't have to do that
> for Atari 8 bit machines...
> 
Maybe I was not as clear as I should have been, yes, sometimes you have to buy
add-ons for an Atari, or a Commodore or an IBM, etc.  (Read open architecture
or whatever you want to call it.)  Add-ons for Atari are merely cable plugins
for the most part.  They usually do not involve taking your computer apart to
add boards, flip dip switches, etc.  Granted the early 400/800 was an exception
-- but it was a true open architecture and for the most part all you did was
add boards.  What I was trying to say was that for the most part what I either
had built in in my Atari or could add with a cable type plug in unit, is not
true with the IBM XT that I use at work.  The IBM requires not only that I add
new cards but also that I often must reconfigure it either thru software or
more often thru dip switches.  Have you ever tried to figure out first of all
where the damn dip switches are, secondly which one dip switch you want and
thirdly which switch on the dip switch needs to be off and which ones need to
be on?  Believe me, it's a pain in the ***.
> >>    But what about the capabilities as a microcomputer, you ask?  Well, the
> >> IBM has the 8-bit beat here, too.  Say you want to hook a standard printer
> >> up to your 1200XL; what do you do?  Call mail-order place after mail-order
> >> place, trying to find somebody who knows what kind of cable you need; then
> >> pay $59.95, only to discover that the 1200XL is different somehow than the
> >> rest of Atari's 8-bit machines, so you have to go through the whole cycle
> >> again.
Cables for the Atari line are available in this area as readily or more readily
then for the IBM and there is no difference between the 1200XL and any other
Atari as far as cabling goes, the only difference is in the OS.
> 
> And how many companies do you think make/support serial (RS232) printers
> as opposed to Centronix style parallel printers...?
This comment loses me, I use a centronix parallel style cable/printer port on
my Tek 4107, IBM-XT and all Atari's.  Granted for about $150 you can add a
board to an Epson to make it serial.  What is your point?
> 
> Are you serious? The Centronix parallel cable with a DB25 connector has
> got to be *the* most common cabling connection available...
Probably should be, but except for authorized IBM dealers, it is not that
common in the Portland area.  Admittedly, the most uncommon cable to find is
centronix to centronix.  Recently tried to obtain 5 of them for some Tek 4107's
and ended up having Egghead Software custom make some for us.
> 
> >> And speaking of software, the IBM has just about every micro I know about
> >> beat cold in both public domain software and commercial software, in both
> >> quality and quantity.  That may be only because of the perceived usage of
> >> the respective machines, but frankly, I would not even *think* of trying
> >> to market a serious program for the 8-bit Atari, if only because of what
> >> I know about the, um, "habits" of local Atari users with regard to software
> >> piracy.
I won't comment on this as more informed persons on the net have already been
countering this argument.  There is some concern of quantity vs quality, and
most User groups have a lot of each (Atari, or IBM user groups).
> ...um, again, I ask: are you serious? Atari 8 bits may have a lot of software,
> but nowhere near the about IBM PC/XTs do. There is a book published that lists
> useable PD software for the IBM, sources, and where to find it. It is 1210
> pages of very, very tiny print...
Again, I only am aware of what the various user groups have available, believe
me in the PNW we have a lot of PD software available thru the user groups.  land
Atari Club, Seattle Puget-Sound Atari Computer Enthusiasts, etc.)
> >I agree that piracy is deplorable, but I doubt that anyone does not have some
> >pirated software. 
> ...excuse me?
> Yea, and if I want out-of-print books, I usually rip them off from
> the library, rather than looking for them in used book stores...
I hate to push the issue, but where do you find "used software stores" and
isn't it just as illegal to sell software as it is to copy it?  I do not go out
of my way to obtain illegal software, I try buying it first.  In fact I do not
ever deliberately obtain illegal software, but I am sure that I have downloaded
software from a BBS that was.  I just have no idea how to identify it as such.
Software does not have a tag saying, this software is illegal copied software.
How do you decide that what you have downloaded from a BBS is pirated and
should not be used, but erased?  My crystal ball does not read software for
illegality.  And again, I have never heard of pirated business type software,
but am aware that many, many games are copied illegally.  So I generally stay
clear of games, but for my kids, I have downloaded games from BBSs and I have
absolutely no idea what is pirated and what is legitimate.  None of the game
titles are familar from the software that I have seen at my local computer
store.  So before you get on your soap box about using pirated software, tell
me how you figure out what is nice and what is pirated?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, but I have both an IBM XT and an Atari ST. The ST is
> superior to the XT (even though I have the XT "suped-up") in almost
> every way, shape and form. But if you believe that any 8 bit machine 
> is every bit as useable as a 16 bit machine, you must not use the machine
> for anything more than hobby computing...
> 
> ...and if that sounds snobbish, I apologize...but I think, per chance, that
> it is true...
> 
> -- 
>                            --- Rob DeMillo 
My last comment is that I wish that Rob would go to one of the Atari Computer
Faires now being organized on the West Coast (San Jose and Portland have
occurred, but more are coming including Seattle). There is a form of Pascal for
the 8 bit (Turbo Pascal) that supposedly is a full set (or whatever the term
is) and there are CAD programs available now that work, look nice and do not
have the mathematical errors in them that Rob seems to think.  As for the ST,
try looking at Real CADD from Generic Software (what a company name!)--it is
exceptional for use on either the IBM or the ST, but the ST is super looking.

One other comment, since when is the IBM PC a 16 bit machine?  I always thought
of IBM PC (and XT) as being 8 bitters, also.  I believe that the IBM AT is a 16
bitter, albeit not a 68000 chip.

--Bill Dippert--
Disclaimer:  I do not have stock in Atari, Commodore or IBM, my opinions
expressed are my own and do not represent Tektronix, or any computer vendor,
manufacturer or supplier.  And I definitely support the viewpoint of ADAPSO.

>                                Madison Academic Computer Center
> 
> 	usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo
> 	ARPA:   demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu    (now isn't that easier?)
> 
> 		----------------------------------------
> 	"I am not so sure
> 	 what you want me for!			'War Games'
> 	 Either your machine is a 		   - Crosby, Stills and Nash
> 	 fool, or me..."