🚀 go-pugleaf

I am guilty too!! Of not speeking up that is.  When the Mac+ was first
introduced, I was all prepaired with my band saw to cut the damned key
pad off!  (Seriously, I have done just that in the past.)  But then I
discovered that Apple had destroyed the rest of the keyboard as well.

My solution:  When I bought the Mac+, I sold by 512K with the new
keyboard and kept my old one.

To be more constructive - The SCSI port has been touted for providing
mix-and-match for computer storage devices.  Why not do the same thing
for keyboards.  Lets pick(define) a keyboard connector/interface standard.
Then we can shop for the keyboard that suits our needs somewhat
independant of the computer of our dreams.  Best of all, when changing
computers (upgrade, or work to home) it would not be necessary to make that
painfull adjustment.

Of coarse this probably will never happen, For all the advantages to the
user, I can not come up with any tangeable advantges to the computer
manufacturer.

Roger Bates.

These are my views, not those of my employer (who didn't appreciate the
way I treated his keyboards).

> Arrrrrggghhhhhh!  
> 
> *** Warning, keyboard layout flame ahead...
> 
> I think I must be a member of the (or a) 'silent majority' when I state
> that I much prefer the layout of the original Mac keyboard to that
> abomination placed on the Mac+.  I think the first keyboard is wonderful,
> GOOD JOB, GUYS!  
> 
     I wouldn't go that far.  See below.
> 
> The new placements of the Command and Option keys are awful.  The dinky
> right shift key is particularly annoying.  I am a fairly quick and
> sloppy typist, and I don't like having to pussyfoot around my shift
> keys to keep from hitting other junk.  I preferred the
> left-hand/right-hand symmetry of the Option keys on the original
> keyboard.  It made for less hand-cramping when using them.  
> 
> I would have preferred the Caps-lock and Command keys to be exchanged.
> (I have since gotten used to curling my left thumb for Command rather
> than the more familiar pinkie-push).  Caps-lock is not actuated nearly
> as much as Command, so why put it in the more valuable position?
> 
       ..........
> 
> I don't care where the \ and ` keys are on a keyboard.  They could be on the
> bottom and still be close enough.  They should NOT displace vitally important
> keys such as Backspace, Return, and Shift.  All of these should be big, close
> to the home position, and have free space nearby for finger mash room.
> 
> I think that the Mac+ keyboard was designed by renegade left-handed (you can
> bet the pad isn't in the way of THEIR mouse!) piano designers from DEC....
> (DEC's keyboard anthem:  WI-DER, MORE-KEYS, WI-DER, MORE-KEYS, ...)
> ((Actually I think the VT-220 keyboard was designed for executives, who
>   equate key count with corporate status.  The Mac+ keyboard designers
>   are aware of this and didn't want businessmen to pooh-pooh the Mac+
>   because it doesn't have enough keys.))
> 
> Remember, high-speed typists care where keys go.  The rest don't.  Keyboards
> are almost always designed by some guy who can't type, and who feels that
> a perfectly rectangular cutout in the case and the color of the legends are
> THE most important things.  Need I say more?
> 
> ***** Applying CO  here.
>                  2
> 
> Sorry, folks, that has been building up for some time.  Am I really alone
> out here?
> 
> -- 
> 
> +----------------+
> ! II      CCCCCC !  Jim Cathey
> ! II  SSSSCC     !  ISC Systems Corp.
> ! II      CC     !  Spokane, WA
> ! IISSSS  CC     !  UUCP: ihnp4!tektronix!reed!iscuva!jimc
> ! II      CCCCCC !  (509)927-5757
> +----------------+
> 			"With excitement like this, who is needing enemas?"

No, Jim, you aren't alone.  Since I bought my first Mac two years
ago, I have always felt that overall it was the best personal
computer on the market, except for the keyboard.  I'll probably draw
some fire for saying so but to me the #@% PC has the best FEEL of
any keyboard I've used, terminals included.  It's LAYOUT and number
of keys is lousy but the touch is just right.  The Mac's is too
high, too clunky and (agreeing with Jim) the keys are in the wrong
place.  I hope Apple gets a lot of feedback and does something right
with the keyboard on their upcoming products.


Brian Fenske                           Boeing Aerospace Company
UUCP: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!brian          Seattle, Washington

In article <884@ssc-vax.UUCP>, brian@ssc-vax.UUCP (Brian Fenske) writes:
> > Arrrrrggghhhhhh!  
> > I think I must be a member of the (or a) 'silent majority' when I state
> > that I much prefer the layout of the original Mac keyboard to that
> > abomination placed on the Mac+.  I think the first keyboard is wonderful,
> > 
>      I wouldn't go that far.  See below.
> > 
> 
> No, Jim, you aren't alone.  Since I bought my first Mac two years
> ago, I have always felt that overall it was the best personal
> computer on the market, except for the keyboard.  I'll probably draw
> some fire for saying so but to me the #@% PC has the best FEEL of
> any keyboard I've used, terminals included.  It's LAYOUT and number
> of keys is lousy but the touch is just right.  The Mac's is too
> high, too clunky and (agreeing with Jim) the keys are in the wrong

I'll toss in my two bits in support of Brian and Jim.  I was VERY 
dissapointed in the Mac keyboard.  I was reasonably sure I would be when
I saw (in pictures) that the profile did not conform to the (at that time
new) DIN standard.  Those low-profile keyboards are very comfortable
to type on.

Another point:  are the keys on the Mac keyboard just a tisch closer
together than most?  My hands cramp when I use it for a long period
of time, and I suspect it's because I hold my hands at a sharper angle
to each other than on other keyboards.

I won't say much about key placements, because I don't have a Mac+
keyboard, and my general experience is that changing from one to another
is not too tough (unless you include one Dvorak in the bunch :-) ).
I use three different ones here at work, and the Mac's at home, and 
have very little trouble with all the different key placements.  BTW, the
one I like best is the one I'm using now-- the new 'enhanced' IBM PC
keyboard.  Height, feel, and most key placements are excellent, and I
finally have separate cursor and number keys !!!!!!!  As long as Apple
is admitting the need for MS DOS interfacing, they would do well to
learn a bit about keyboards from big blue, too.


-- 
Notice how they do not so much fly, as plummet. {appropriate head movement}
                                    --Monty Python (Flying Sheep Sketch)
Andy Hogan   Rosemount, Inc.   Mpls MN
path: ...ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!mmm!rosevax!hogan

Keyboard preference is a very personal issue.  Some people like
low-profile keyboards, and others do not.  Some like Dvorak, and
others prefer QWERTY.  Some want a caps-lock key, others don't.
Some people need a numeric keypad.

It seems to me that a standard is needed, but *not* a standard layout
or a standard height, profile, etc.  Rather, I would like to see a
standard keyboard interface, which all computer and terminal
manufacturers would adhere to.  Keyboard manufacturers would build
units which met the interface standard, and each user could select
the keyboard s/he prefers.  The marketplace would probably cause
a small number of designs to become de facto standards.

There are keyboards which I like and some which I can't stand.  I
would love to be able to keep using one of the keyboards I currently
use [no, I won't tell you which one] when I migrate to a new machine.
(I was able to do this, after a fashion, with my Sun by plugging a
terminal into serial port A and telling the Sun to use it instead of
the Sun keyboard.  Unfortunately, this no longer works in SunWindows.)
I resent continually being subject to the whim of designers who keep
coming out with new and different designs.
-- 
  John Bruner (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory)
  MILNET: jdb@mordor [jdb@s1-c.ARPA]	(415) 422-0758
  UUCP: ...!ucbvax!decwrl!mordor!jdb 	...!seismo!mordor!jdb

I wonder what a keyboard such as the ones court reporters use could do for
productivity, when used with a computer?

In article <8235@lanl.ARPA> dlc@lanl.ARPA (Dale Carstensen) writes:
>I wonder what a keyboard such as the ones court reporters use could do for
>productivity, when used with a computer?

It just so happens that my housemate picked up one of these machines (called
a stenograph).  A stenograph works phonetically; each line of the output
represents one syllable.  Common words have special abbreviations.  Not
every letter is on the keyboard, so combinations are used.  You can,
however, hit all the keys at once.

To use this on a computer, you would need some (relatively sophisticated)
software to interpret the output.

-- 
Larry Rosenstein

Object Specialist
Apple Computer

AppleLink: Rosenstein1
UUCP:  {sun, voder, nsc, mtxinu, dual}!apple!lsr
CSNET: lsr@Apple.CSNET

Is there any way to enable the cursor keys on the Mac+ keyboard for
use with Macwrite?  I know they work with excel and word, but I like
Macwrite and at present they're just taking up space.

Is there any way to enabloe the cursor keys for use with macwrite?

---------

Robert F. Coleman

In article <8235@lanl.ARPA> dlc@lanl.ARPA (Dale Carstensen) writes:
>I wonder what a keyboard such as the ones court reporters use could do for
>productivity, when used with a computer?

Sounds rather like the Microwriter, a 6 button keyboard (I think the thumb
controls 2 buttons) with some inbuilt intelligence.  It was invented by the
producer of the film 'Zulu' (Cy Enderfield, if my memory is correct), and
has been selling steadily, if unspectacularly, for at least 5 years.  The
Microwriter is a chord keyboard, and the finger patterns have some relationship
to the shape of the character you want.

I've never used one, but from what I've heard it's a case of love it or hate
it (like the Mac??).  Apparently it is used by senior civil servants in 
Britain to prepare documents that are too secret to be typed by their
secretaries.  The claim is that virtually anyone can learn to Microwrite at
a useful speed without too much practice, certainly less than would be needed
to reach the same speed on a conventional keyboard.

Now, if you could build one with an integral mouse....

Stephen Withers, 
Manager, Microcomputer Support Group, University Computing Services,
The University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria 3052, Australia.

ACSnet: stephenw@murdu 
UUCP:	{seismo,hplabs,mcvax,ukc,nttlab}!munnari!murdu.oz!stephenw
ARPA:	munnari!murdu.oz!stephenw@seismo.css.gov
CSNET:	stephenw%murdu@munnari.oz

"The only thing I ever learned from experience was that I just made another
mistake."

Actually, a colleague of mine in the Mechanical Engineering dept here is
doing just that (building a MicroWriter into a mouse).  I think he's
pretty close.

-- 
=Spencer   ({ihnp4,decvax}!utah-cs!thomas, thomas@utah-cs.ARPA)

As long as we are talking about alternate keyboard layouts and
styles, has anyone else come to the conclusion that I have, viz.,
that people should have TWO (different) keyboards, one for each
hand, and that they should be in the arms of your chair!?

Or isn't anybody else tired of the awkward and unnatural position
required by every keyboard they have ever used?

cheers,

Tim

In article <59@unc.unc.UUCP> rentsch@unc.UUCP (Tim Rentsch) writes:
>
>As long as we are talking about alternate keyboard layouts and
>styles, has anyone else come to the conclusion that I have, viz.,
>that people should have TWO (different) keyboards, one for each
>hand, and that they should be in the arms of your chair!?
>cheers,
>
>Tim

I suppose someone should point out that this would only be a good idea
if you were a touch typist who never has to look at the keys.  I sort
of fit that description, except that even after twelve years, I still
have trouble with the shifted number keys.  I've never seen any
figures, but an awful lot of the computer-folk I know are hunt-and-
peck typists, and such an arrangement would be sheer torture for
them.

Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712

"Frankly, there's something about reality that gives me the shivering willies!"
						-- Hank the Hallucination --

-- barnett@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, barnett@im4u.UUCP,
      {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!im4u!barnett

In article <59@unc.unc.UUCP> rentsch@unc.UUCP (Tim Rentsch) writes:
>
>As long as we are talking about alternate keyboard layouts and
>styles	... isn't anybody else tired of the awkward and unnatural
>position required by every keyboard they have ever used?

Lilian Malt, a British woman, did work in this area, she came up with
the "Maltron" keyboard.  It was ergonomically designed to the hilt,
carefully sculpted to fit each hand, with many keys for each thumb.  It
looked like someone had taken an old MIT or Stanford MicroSwitch
keyboard and put it in the oven until it was totally deformed.  I think
the two halves could be used independently so that they could be mounted
on the arms of a chair or something.

I hoped that this keyboard would make it, but it seems we are just
too ingrained with qwerty to break loose.  If anyone knows about
such a keyboard for PC or MAC use I'd like to know about it.

Rick Woudenberg
(...!alliant!eaw)