🚀 go-pugleaf

Ali Shaikh writes :
>Kapur@ge-crd writes :
> > According to the Dean of Undergraduate Affairs at
> > IIT Delhi, Prof. Ray, "the Indian government must
> > do something to tackle with this problem... We
> > can ask students seeking admission to the IITs to
> > sign a bond to serve the nation for a minimum
> > period of 10 yers. I do not know how far this
              ^^
Whoa ! TEN years ? And what does "serve the nation" mean ?


> > According to a England-based journal Nature, the
> > ratio of students returning to India after
> > attaining a doctorate degree is only 18%. 
                                         ^^
Pretty low isn't it ? But what about those who return to India after a 
Master's degree ? And how what are the percentages for IIT students ? A lot of 
students studying for doctoral degrees are from other universities / colleges.
Why shouldn't similar measures be contemplated for them ? Please remember that 
University education NO MATTER WHERE in India is heavily subsidised by the 
government ( and hence the country and hence the tax-payer ). 

I feel that the focus on the IITs is much more for the high profile and the 
image they have in the public eye that they are centres of excellence ( myth
or reality ? ) Ditto for doctors. I feel sick when people talk of lack of 
commitment on part of doctors considering they get such a shoddy deal back
home. ( Need a doc (:-) )

>     The honorable professor might not have realized that one major
>     reason the IITs are institutes of excellence is the student
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        ^^^^^^^
Whatever that means. As for student bodies at them -- not as militant as in
other univs, but not drastically different: perhaps the only difference 
is that they feel they can *do it*, rather than whine. 

>     body at each of them. A restriction like this may mean that
>     over the long term, those bright students will begin looking elsewhere.
                                                                   ^^^^^^^^^
I want to know how many people join IITs with the express intention of going
(coming?) abroad ? Mostly, people are undecided about the future, or so I 
concluded. Are there any "elsewhere"s worthwhile right now?
   
>     Living and studying in a foriegn country broadens the mind.
                                  ^^           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No kidding ? But seriously, you'll be surprised how little it really does.
In fact, I've been horrified to see people with prejudices ( racial / political
/ social / etc. ) as thick as a tank's armour while *broadening their minds*.
Well, maybe they would have been worse otherwise ! I've seen some people turn
from vulgar people to better-off vulgar people ( they are fatter and dress 
better ).

>     People who are thus trained are extremely valuable.
> 
>     The Taiwaneese, Greek and Turkish Govt's ask for ?two? years
>     of military service. 10 years of "serve the nation"? Most people
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

10 years of serving the nation is better than 2 years of military service.
Amen.

Sanjiva.

In article <633@epistemi.UUCP> mukesh@epistemi.UUCP (Mukesh Patel) writes:
>In article <614@philabs.UUCP>
>>> According to the Dean of Undergraduate Affairs at
>>> IIT Delhi, Prof. Ray, "the Indian government must
>>> do something to tackle with this problem... We
>>> can ask students seeking admission to the IITs to
>>> sign a bond to serve the nation for a minimum
>>> period of 10 years.
>
>I have no idea by how much the Indian state subsidises these students'
>education but surely there can be nothing wrong in a country demanding 
>that its graduates having taken advantage of the system do their
>bit for it.  Ali's comment
>
>>A (10 year) restriction like this may mean that
>>over the long term, those bright students will begin looking elsewhere.
>
>Makes little sense unless he means that Indian student would do their
>first degrees abroad.  That's fine as long as they are not benefiting
>from the state system.  But I think he means that these bright young 
>things would attend OTHER colleges and universities in India.  Well 
>in that case I think they should be obliged in the same manner to 
>remain in India and contribute to the country's technological and
>economical development.
>
>>    Living and studying in a foreign country broadens the mind.
>
>It also fattens ones bank balance.  Let's call a spade a spade.  I bet
>about 90% of you expats would not mind working in India if only the
>pay was comparable to US.
>
>>    People who are thus trained are extremely valuable.
>
>You got it!  That's why the "learned professor" would like to 
>see you lot stick around in India to do your bit for YOUR country.
>
>>>........ the ratio of students returning to India after
>>> attaining a doctorate degree is only 18%. 
>
>To which Ali responds
>>    I think that the percentage of people that do go back is sufficient
>>    repayment for the investment the Indian Govt. puts into each graduate,
>>    IIT or otherwise. 
>
>So when is your bit of 18% going to go over and repay the Indian
>Govt?  Perhaps the issue is whether you care enough about India
>and its people rather than whether you should repay anything to 
>the Indian Govt.  The Govt, I am sure Ali is well aware, raises the 
>money from the people with which it then educates a small elite
>who more often than not simply packs up and buggers off to foreign
>lands because there is no PERSONAL advantages to be gained by 
>remaining behind once they get their first/second degrees.
>
>I am surprised that these students fail to notice that in providing them 
>with the best education and facilities that India can afford the 
>country as a whole makes sacrifices in other areas such as medical 
>care and primary education.  A lot of politicians and academic
>stomach the elitism of further education in India in the hope that
>the product of it could be deployed to improve the lot of the 
>rest of the less fortunate population.
>
>Instead of which the Indian people get a kick in the balls which 
>is what remarks like the following add up to.
>
>>    The Taiwaneese, Greek and Turkish Govt's ask for ?two? years
>>    of military service. 10 years of "serve the nation"? Most people
>>    would turn to the Indian Institutes of Marketing (I know,..)
>>    and to careers in selling soaps, instead of doing technical
>>    things. 
>>
>>    Ali Shaik     ..ihnp4!philabs!ams
>
>Maybe selling soap is better than having to justify ones selfishness.
>
>mukesh patel
>
>I live and study in Britain.  I was born in Uganda of Indian parents
>both of whom came from Gujarat.  I have visited India twice in my life.
>And I am determined to remain and work in Britain after my PhD rather
>than go to the states even though the pay here is terrible.  Perhaps
>Britain (and India) would be a better place if more people took into 
>account their duty to their fellow citizens.  

WELL Said Mukesh! I fully agree with you. As an Indian acaademic working in
Britain, I frequently receive enquires from Indians for research jobs in 
Universities. Some of these guys are Very Good. Should I offer them a
job? (I some times do have vacancies).I do feel guilty of robbing! 
                        I have one person working with me. He is VERY GOOD.
If he does return to India after a few years, he will be tremendously useful
there. Most Indian academics I have met (mostly in the US) do not seem to be bothered
by this fact. I on the other hand do feel guilty of being a party to
the brain drain. I have no solution though.

Santosh Shrivastava

In article <633@epistemi.UUCP>
> In article <614@philabs.UUCP>
> > [IIT Dean wants students to sign a 10 year bond]
> >>........ the ratio of students returning to India after
> >> attaining a doctorate degree is only 18%. 
> 
> To which Ali responds
> >    I think that the percentage of people that do go back is sufficient
> >    repayment for the investment the Indian Govt. puts into each graduate,
> >    IIT or otherwise. 
> 
> So when is your bit of 18% going to go over and repay the Indian
> Govt?  

I am not sure what Patel is trying to say. The point was 18% of
Indian students who get their doctorates in the US return to India.
NOT that 18% OF each student returns. (I am sorry, everything below
your left knee has to get on the next plane to Bombay. The rest of
you may stay.)

> I am surprised that these students fail to notice that in providing them 
> with the best education and facilities that India can afford the 
> country as a whole makes sacrifices in other areas such as medical 
> care and primary education.  
.
> I live and study in Britain.  I was born in Uganda of Indian parents
> both of whom came from Gujarat.  I have visited India twice in my life.
					^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^	
Obviously I may be wrong, given your vast knowlege of India and her
people, but it seems to me that if the financial aid that the Indian
Govt gives the IITs were spent elsewhere, it wouldnt make too much
of a difference in the lifestyle of the average Indian. But it would
make it very difficult for a student from a poor household to attend
a good school. 

> A lot of politicians and academic
> stomach the elitism of further education in India..

Further education in India is elitist in that the entrance
requirements for good engineering and medical schools are very
high. 
Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get a decent job without a 
degree. For instance, one needs a degree in commerce at least, to get a
job as a bank teller. Thus, further education is a necessity, not a
luxury.

> 
> I live and study in Britain.  I was born in Uganda of Indian parents
> both of whom came from Gujarat.  I have visited India twice in my life.
> And I am determined to remain and work in Britain after my PhD rather
> than go to the states even though the pay here is terrible.  
> 
> mukesh patel

Very laudable! Why did your parents leave India? I'll bet it was for
economic reasons. Following your line of reasoning, didnt they have a
duty to remain in India and contribute to the country's economy in
any way they could? After all, they were born there, and although they 
may or may not have received state subsidised education, they
certainly made use of the facilities provided to them as citizens.
They used the roads, the busses and so on. (Lets see, you want to go
from Bombay to Delhi by bus? Your share of the petrol, wear and tear
of the State Transport bus... you owe India 1 hour and 4 mins of your 
life. Please sign this bond.)


The brain drain that affects India and other countries is certainly
a problem. The solution does not lie in making emmigration illegal,
or by making people sign bonds in order to get an education. It lies
in increasing the opportunity for trained people in their own
countries. Those of us who have decided to emmigrate, have to live a
life of compromise. On the one hand there are financial and
professional rewards, and on the other there are family and cultural
ties. The scales tip in different directions for different people. 

However, non-resident Indians (NRIs, in Govt of India terminology),
are a valuable resource. They have money (foreign exchange) to invest
and a desire to see India do well. They are contributing to the
Indian economy - through investments and industrial collaborations.
India does and will continue to derive a benefit from the NRI
population. (I am not suggesting that all professionals in India 
leave. I am merely pointing out that if a person does do so, then 
this cannot be viewed as a complete loss to India.)
Also, NRI tend to do a good PR job for India.


ajei gopal
ajei@bellcore

In article <642@cheviot.uucp> santosh@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Santosh Shrivatava) writes:

>the brain drain. I have no solution though.

>Santosh Shrivastava

Nor do I.

But this discussion (btw, I think this is round 2 - we went over all this a
long time ago) has so far focussed on the "morality" of benefitting from 
Indian education and using that to fatten one's (American) bank balance.
With all respect, I think that this is both simplistic and futile.

Few (excepting intrepid souls like Ali :-) would argue that settling in the
US after taking advantage of (scarce!) Indian resources is ethically less
than admirable. But frankly, few give a damn about ethics. It has been
my experience that people are essentially selfish. I merely state this as
a probable fact. I don't think it's necessarily bad, but let's not get
into another futile discussion!

What influence the average person are his personal concerns - depending on
his priorities and tastes, the company, the culture, family, professional
opportunities, and of course, money. Patriotism and ethics, you will notice,
are not high on this list. They rarely even make it there (or maybe they
do - those occasional twinges, you know. But perhaps their importance in
rhetoric balances their absence in pragmatics.). If you want those "talented",
"motivated" people, you must give their talents an outlet, and you must
give them the motives they need. C'est la vie. Dammit, you expect patriotism
and ethics to influence a decision that affect's one's life and career when
they rarely succeed in making you pay the correct customs duty?

The answer, my friends, is not blowing in the wind; but at least, let's 
be honest with ourselves. And incidentally, note that I have not limited
my cynicism to Indians - I think everyone is equally selfish (but of course,
some are more selfish that others :~).

For the record, I enjoyed the privilege (for once, no sarcasm intended)
of attending IIT Madras. If I go back, it will be due to family reasons.

                                      - raghu ramakrishnan

In article <633@epistemi.UUCP> mukesh@epistemi.UUCP (Mukesh Patel) writes:
>In article <614@philabs.UUCP>
>>> According to the Dean of Undergraduate Affairs at
>>> IIT Delhi, Prof. Ray, "the Indian government must
>>> do something to tackle with this problem... We
>>> can ask students seeking admission to the IITs to
>>> sign a bond to serve the nation for a minimum
>>> period of 10 years.
>
>I have no idea by how much the Indian state subsidises these students'
>education but surely there can be nothing wrong in a country demanding
>that its graduates having taken advantage of the system do their
>bit for it.  Ali's comment
>

The IITs are HEAVILY subsidized. A very rough ballpark figure per year (in
rupees)

Academic staff: (including professors, and support staff)
        10 professor-years per group of 50 students gives
                10 x 36000/50 = 7200

General engineering equipment (estimating approx. 1 oscilloscope-equivalent
per student per year -- I didn't actually go out and price an oscilloscope,
I guess it would cost around the same as a good color TV): 5000

I left out computer system acquisition and maintenance costs altogether.
Also left out general maintenance and overhead associated with the institute's
buildings, security, and so on.

Conservatively, this works out to Rs. 12000 or so per student per year,
which is Rs. 60,000 for 5 year B.Tech., probably about the same for the more
intense 4 year B.Tech., since it would seem that the amount of training
given to the students in the latter is actually improved (and hence more
expensive: I don't know of any big breakthrough in improving efficiency
of teaching at engineering schools).

When I went to IIT, tuition was Rs. 200 per year, I paid a total of Rs. 1000
for my entire engineering education, which is BETWEEN 1 AND 2 PERCENT OF THE
ACTUAL COST. I am pretty sure that my estimate is very conservative. I
expect the real figure to be below 1%.

>It also fattens ones bank balance.  Let's call a spade a spade.  I bet
>about 90% of you expats would not mind working in India if only the
>pay was comparable to US.
>

Yup. Tell it like it is.

>You got it!  That's why the "learned professor" would like to
>see you lot stick around in India to do your bit for YOUR country.

                        ...

>So when is your bit of 18% going to go over and repay the Indian
>Govt?  Perhaps the issue is whether you care enough about India
>and its people rather than whether you should repay anything to
>the Indian Govt.  The Govt, I am sure Ali is well aware, raises the
>money from the people with which it then educates a small elite
>who more often than not simply packs up and buggers off to foreign
>lands because there is no PERSONAL advantages to be gained by
>remaining behind once they get their first/second degrees.
>
>I am surprised that these students fail to notice that in providing them
>with the best education and facilities that India can afford the
>country as a whole makes sacrifices in other areas such as medical
>care and primary education.  A lot of politicians and academic
>stomach the elitism of further education in India in the hope that
>the product of it could be deployed to improve the lot of the
>rest of the less fortunate population.
>
>Instead of which the Indian people get a kick in the balls which
>is what remarks like the following add up to. [ Remarks deleted ]

[Flame on]

Make no mistake, babies die of malnutrition and childhood diseases, grow up
retarded, underclass youths get substandard education or no education at all
and grow up to be frustrated losers who frequently riot, and one reason is
that WE are able to live well and occassionally jerk off on the net with
highfalutin intellectual chitchat about how ignorant and backward our
compatriots "back home" are. It is good once in a while to see someone like
Mukesh Patel lay it on the line. Not that this will give us hypocrites more
than a good laugh. I doubt that there is anyone out there (self included)
who actually lays awake nights, tossing and turning from the pangs of guilt
arising from our SYSTEMATIC AND THOUGHTLESS PLUNDER OF THE NATION'S FUTURE.

[Flame off]

A possible solution to the problem might be to actually stop the subsidies
and charge the students a realistic tuition for their college education,
with the government providing loans and scholarships to deserving and needy
aspirants (sort of like the student loan program in the U.S.). No one
leaves until he/she has paid back what he/she owes the government, plus
interest. If there is no realistic possibility of repaying a loan of Rs.
60000 over a reasonable period of time with a salary of Rs. 2000 a month and
still make ends meet, the government should be allowed to take it out of
your hide, by giving you credit for employing your engineering and other
skills in community-development related projects side-by-side with your
actual 40 hour a week job or whatever.

An extension of the idea would involve the setting up of a Rural Development
Administration (outfits like that are already in place, but I don't know to
what extent they actively seek to involve college students and graduates who
don't actually choose to go into government service and end up, usually to
their horror, in the boonies) which lets you work off your loan during
(e.g., over summer vacation) and immediately following your education, in
development projects in the countryside.

Note that I am deliberately ruling out the possibility of making dollars
abroad and remitting those to pay off the student loan: this is contrary to
the spirit of my approach, since India should not be in the business of
manufacturing cheap, high-quality engineering graduates for export. That is
no business at all: can anyone hoping to stay in business afford to sell off
his plant equipment, even at a profit? Yet that is exactly what India is
doing right now.

A side benefit of this approach would be to provide the educational
establishment the feedback needed to assess the relevance of the educational
system to national development needs. The precise skills and training that
are appropriate to specific classes of developmental tasks and which are
lacking in the existing approach, can be identified in the field (as it
were).

In addition to keeping higher education costs down and helping national
development and aiding the design of an appropriate educational system, the
above approach would also benefit the young middle and upper-middle class
Indian by getting him/her more closely involved with the community and the
"real" nation at large, and let him identify more closely with his/her
society. I have in mind not just the phoren-oriented, but also the bulk of
Indian middle class youths (who are still in India) and lead a generally
humdrum and unfulfilling life (No flames, that's just my impression.) and
are alienated from the "real" India.

Regarding the overall effect of this approach on brain drain, at worst it
can be expected to mitigate its effects. In the best case, it might reduce
it to a trickle. It just might be that if one is deeply involved with, and
committed to, his/her people, it is more difficult to just up and leave.

                                                --Bapa Rao.

       One figure which I remember: The Indian government spends on average
Lines: 7

20 times as much on an IITian than on an engineering graduate from other
schools. The ratio for an average science or arts graduate to an IITian is
larger. There is a suggestion that IITs be completely transformed to
posgraduate schools. That would not solve the problem. If somebody feels
strongly that he owes some money or services back to the government, he
can offcourse volunteer his services to some govt. organizations.
     

	Several years ago every other medical student found it fit to leg it
to the US after completing MBBS. This came to an end as soon as the concerned
organization stopped conducting the ECFMG ( I think that's the name ) exam in 
India . Ofcourse the tide of Indian Doctors moving to the US was also checked
by the fact that very few were granted visas.
	This makes me believe that a practical way to check the migration 
of IIT graduates to this country is to ban the administration of GRE in 
India .
	Comments ?

> 
> 	Several years ago every other medical student found it fit to leg it
> to the US after completing MBBS. This came to an end as soon as the concerned
> organization stopped conducting the ECFMG ( I think that's the name ) exam in 
> India . Ofcourse the tide of Indian Doctors moving to the US was also checked
> by the fact that very few were granted visas.
> 	This makes me believe that a practical way to check the migration 
> of IIT graduates to this country is to ban the administration of GRE in 
> India .
> 	Comments ?


Some 2-3 yrs ago, there was strong rumors that GRE is also in the banning
phase. But apparently they were just that, rumors. I hear that notwithstanding
the ECFMG ban, some well-heeled medicos  leg it to Manila/Lahore etc
to take the exam. Well ?
-- 
S. Sridhar sridhar%spy@tektronix.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

> 
> 	Several years ago every other medical student found it fit to leg it
> to the US after completing MBBS. This came to an end as soon as the concerned
> organization stopped conducting the ECFMG ( I think that's the name ) exam in 
> India . Ofcourse the tide of Indian Doctors moving to the US was also checked
> by the fact that very few were granted visas.
> 	This makes me believe that a practical way to check the migration 
> of IIT graduates to this country is to ban the administration of GRE in 
> India .
> 	Comments ?

	My summary of this discussion is that,
	We are (those here from india) all brainy guys!
	We are smart (we have already come to greener pastures).
	We are patriotic (we want other brainy guys to stay back to serve
			  the country - our mother land?)
	--------------
	It should be noted that many people from IIT/IISc who go join
	industries move to US after a few years.
	(This is atleast true from my batch of students.
	 I came here after working for 5 years in indian industry.
	 I know several others who came between 1 and 5 years after
	 leaving IISc)
	Money is certainly one of the reason;
	But many people have left India for other reasons(I don't want
	to go into all the different reasons).
	---------------
	The budget of IISc was about $2 million per year (2 crore rupees).
	The money repatriated from indians abroad is about $1 billion
	(approximate) - precious Foreign Exchange to buy high tech machinery
	etc, badly needed by indian industry.
	----
	If an indian spends $20,000 in India (earned outside India), probably
	he is paying back the money govt spent educating him.
	---------------
	I recall one of the participant in a debate (in IISc) said
	"The problem is not of brain drain but of DRAINED BRAINS"
	(She was an arts student; the topic of debate was some thing
	like "The problem of scientific brain drain").
	----------------
	Many of the technological advances of the west do reach poorer
	countries like India; One may look at the brain drain as the
	contribution of the poorer countries to the global technological 
	advancement (benifiting the whole of mankind).
	the BEST brains should be at the BEST places for advancing science
	and technology. (I am not saying which is the BEST place!)
	--------------
	=======================================
	Most of the above are facts/my observations

	The solutions should be aimed at the root cause of the problem.
	If GRE is banned, people may find it difficult to go to USA.
	But, how about universities in countries like Canada, UK, Australia, ...
	which do not require GRE.
	(I have heard of many people going to Singapore etc to write ECFMG)
---------------------------
Ramakrishna M.V., Univ. of Waterloo, Ont, Canada.
---------------------------

In article <7058@duke.UUCP>, apte@duke.UUCP (Jitendra Apte) writes:
>
> 	Several years ago every other medical student found it fit to leg it
> to the US after completing MBBS. This came to an end as soon as the concerned
> organization stopped conducting the ECFMG ( I think that's the name ) exam in
> India . Ofcourse the tide of Indian Doctors moving to the US was also checked
> by the fact that very few were granted visas.
> 	This makes me believe that a practical way to check the migration
> of IIT graduates to this country is to ban the administration of GRE in
> India .
> 	Comments ?

The American Medical Association appears to be the main force both behind
the restrictions on where the ECFMG is administered, as well as the fact
that visas are hard to come by if you are a medico.  (While the justification
of course, is that foreign medical graduates are not quite up to par with
American medical graduates, it seems obvious that there is an ulterior economic
motive.)  The AMA appears to be a lobby powerful enough to get whatever it
wants:  In his book, Jimmy Carter calls the AMA just about the most powerful
lobby he had to deal with.  It has certainly done better than any other
labour union in the country in obtaining quotas on foreign imports.

I have a feeling that similar results will be hard to acheive in the case
of engineers and scientists unless there is a force comparable to the AMA
that lobbies against letting them come into this country.

Certainly, the Indian government could take the initiative in banning the
administration of the GRE in India.  This would however require a system
similar to the "exit visa" system prevalent in some countries to ensure
that students can come here when appropriate.  I really do not think that
would be a desirable system for us to adopt in India.  Besides, banning the
GRE effectively may require the co-operation of the neigbouring countries at
the very least.

I am also not so sure that the Indian government would have succeeded very
well on its own in preventing medicos from coming here.  I wonder if others
on the net feel the same way.