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In article <Bz7AoC.HAJ@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:

>CAF-News has had several articles about how much news admin should
>enforce the charters of unmoderated newsgroup. I'm enclosing
>references to those articles.

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:

>Who is CAF-News, and who put them in a position of authority over all
>news admins? I.e., who cares what CAF-News thinks news admins should be
>doing?

CAF-News is just newsgroup alt.comp.acad-freedom.news. It neither has,
nor claims, authority over any news admins. Its articles, like the
articles in news.admin.policy, are just the opinion of their authors.

- Carl

ANNOTATED REFERENCES

(All these documents are available on-line. Access information follows.)

=================
caf
=================
* About the CAF mailing lists (and newsgroups)

A description of the comp-academic-freedom-talk mailing list. It is a
free-forum for the discussion of questions such as: How should general
principles of academic freedom (such as freedom of expression, freedom
to read, due process, and privacy) be applied to university computers
and networks? How are these principles actually being applied? How can
the principles of academic freedom as applied to computers and
networks be defended?

=================
=================

If you have gopher, you can browse the CAF archive with the command
   gopher gopher.eff.org

These document(s) are also available by anonymous ftp (the preferred
method) and by email. To get the file(s) via ftp, do an anonymous ftp
to ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4), and get file(s):

  pub/academic/caf

To get the file(s) by email, send email to archive-server@eff.org.
Include the line(s) (be sure to include the space before the file
name):

send acad-freedom caf
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:

>In article <Bz7AoC.HAJ@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>>CAF-News has had several articles about how much news admin should
>>enforce the charters of unmoderated newsgroup. I'm enclosing
>>references to those articles.

>Who is CAF-News, and who put them in a position of authority over all
>news admins? I.e., who cares what CAF-News thinks news admins should be
>doing?

Carl's appointed himself world-wide guardian of politically correct free
speech.  Best way to handle it is to simply put him in your kill file.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

In article <Bz8Gpw.D3B@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>>Who is CAF-News, and who put them in a position of authority over all
>>news admins? I.e., who cares what CAF-News thinks news admins should be
>>doing?
>CAF-News is just newsgroup alt.comp.acad-freedom.news. It neither has,
>nor claims, authority over any news admins. Its articles, like the
>articles in news.admin.policy, are just the opinion of their authors.

Much as I hate to admit it, John has a point. ("There is no idea so good you
cannot find a fool supporting it." -- Larry Niven) Carl, the site in question
is _not_ an academic site, and so academic freedom does not apply. Further,
your position in favor of completely unrestrictred free speech is not
representative of anything outside the academic community, and is
controversial even there. Who appointed you guardian of academic freedom,
anyway?

>ANNOTATED REFERENCES

And another thing: Is there anyone else out there who finds Carl's practice of
including voluminous references in _every_ article he posts as annoying as
Hasan B Mutlu/Serdar Argic's similar practice?
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button

jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>Carl's appointed himself world-wide guardian of politically correct free
>speech.  Best way to handle it is to simply put him in your kill file.

Hmmm....looks like more ELITISM (post only what we think you should post)
from news admins. Way to go Mr De Armond.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Nobody wants constructive criticism.  It's all we can do to put up with
constructive praise.

system@netlink.cts.com (System Administrator) writes:

>NetLink is a public access system, and provides access for people to
>exchange ideas and opinions -- any opinions, not just those that are
>"politically correct." [...]  his posting access [has been]
>temporarily suspended.

jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:

>Carl's appointed himself world-wide guardian of politically correct free
>speech.  Best way to handle it is to simply put him in your kill file.
[...]

What is "politically correct free speech"? I was under the impression
that P.C. and free speech were opposites.

I am, however, happy to report that no appointment is needed to defend
freedom of expression.

- Carl


-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:

>Carl, the site in question is _not_ an academic site, and so academic
>freedom does not apply.

I am happy to report that the some of arguments for treating
unmoderated newsgroups as free speech forums, do not depend on
academic freedom.

>Further, your position in favor of completely unrestrictred free
>speech is not representative of anything outside the academic
>community, and is controversial even there.

I am happy to report that I do not favor for "completely unrestricted
free speech."

>Who appointed you guardian of academic freedom, anyway?

I am happy to report that one can defend academic freedom (and free
speech) without an appointement.

- Carl
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =

In article <1gg54aINNfm6@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>In article <Bz7AoC.HAJ@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>>CAF-News has had several articles about how much news admin should
>>enforce the charters of unmoderated newsgroup. I'm enclosing
>>references to those articles.
>
>Who is CAF-News, and who put them in a position of authority over all
>news admins? I.e., who cares what CAF-News thinks news admins should be
>doing?


Who cares?   Well, most enlightened folk care about reading opinions,
thoughts and relevent commentary.  This doesn't mean CAF-News is in
_a_position_of_authority_, it means it has an opinion that those
pondering the issue might want to consider.

And these opinions are articles written by netfolk just like
yourself.

Come on, John, you don't really think everybody who has an opinion
should just shut up, do you?


Andy
-- 
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------:
:  Andy Dunn           <amdunn@mongrel.UUCP> or <dunn5177@mach1.WLU.CA>   :
:  "AT&T thinks Usenet is an Underground organization" - are we really?   :
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------:

In article <8107@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>
>
>>ANNOTATED REFERENCES
>
>And another thing: Is there anyone else out there who finds Carl's practice of
>including voluminous references in _every_ article he posts as annoying as
>Hasan B Mutlu/Serdar Argic's similar practice?

    I certainly value the references part of CMK's posts. It is _extremely_
refreshing to have someone cite facts rather than hearsay. I would say
that these references have done more to avert flame wars in the policy and
admin groups than anything else.

DanZ

-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

In article <w5_rmq#@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>
>
>Carl's appointed himself world-wide guardian of politically correct free
>speech.  Best way to handle it is to simply put him in your kill file.
>
    PC?  Not really. He was distictly un-PC in a debate on sexual harassment
a few months ago. PC can be defined now as just whatever the speaker doesn't
like.
    Kill file? Sure.

DanZ


-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

In article <1992Dec14.131003.8145@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>>Carl's appointed himself world-wide guardian of politically correct free
>>speech.  Best way to handle it is to simply put him in your kill file.
>
>Hmmm....looks like more ELITISM (post only what we think you should post)
>from news admins. Way to go Mr De Armond.

Sounds like stereotyping, Mr. Hayes.  DeArmond is hardly a representative of
news admins.  I would hazard a guess that his views are not shared by anything
approaching a majority of news admins. [ Note - I do not claim that those
views are correct or incorrect;  merely that they are not held by most other
news admin personnel ]



-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |

In article <w5_rmq#@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>Carl's appointed himself world-wide guardian of politically correct free
>speech.  Best way to handle it is to simply put him in your kill file.

I thought free speech and "political correctness" were at odds with
each other?  Certainly the opponents of "political correctness" often
cite violation of their right to free speech as the reason for their
opposition.

I gather then that you are against both, "political correctness" and
free speech?  I believe that defines you as a fascist.

P.S.: Down with fascism... long live free speech.
      Political correctness isn't.

--
Jurgen Botz                  |   Internet: JBotz@mtholyoke.edu
Academic Systems Consultant  |     Bitnet: JBotz@mhc.bitnet
Mount Holyoke College        |      Voice: (US) 413-538-2375 (daytime)
South Hadley, MA, USA        | Snail Mail: J. Botz, 01075-0629

In <1992Dec14.131003.8145@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>>Carl's appointed himself world-wide guardian of politically correct free
>>speech.  Best way to handle it is to simply put him in your kill file.
>
>Hmmm....looks like more ELITISM (post only what we think you should post)
>from news admins. Way to go Mr De Armond.

Dave:
	Are you seriously proposing that a person who is reading news
does NOT have the right to be selective about what they read?

	Are you serious in proposing that a person receiving news has to
read all 40+ megabytes of message traffic that passes by each day?

	Are *you* reading every message that is generated by every
person anywhere on the net that comes through your site every day?

	Oh?  You don't subscribe to every newsgroup on the machine?
Pray tell, how is not subscribing to a newsgroup different from dropping
a topic or other filtering command into a kill file?

	Your consistency is absolutely amazing.      NOT!  

-- 
Usenet Net News Administrator @ The Wolves Den  (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
news@wolves.durham.nc.us  news%wolves@cs.duke.edu  ...duke!wolves!news
"The flame war is a specific Usenet art form." --me
[This site is not affiliated with Duke University. (Idiots!) ]

In article <8107@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>And another thing: Is there anyone else out there who finds Carl's practice of
>including voluminous references in _every_ article he posts as annoying as
>Hasan B Mutlu/Serdar Argic's similar practice?

Not me.  I find them useful... and if you don't, you don't have to read
them.  However, one thing I do find annoying is people who keep attacking
Carl simply for the oppinions he holds and his practice of presenting them
reasonably and with solid documentation supporting his position.  People
like that /really/ annoy me... 

--
Jurgen Botz                  |   Internet: JBotz@mtholyoke.edu
Academic Systems Consultant  |     Bitnet: JBotz@mhc.bitnet
Mount Holyoke College        |      Voice: (US) 413-538-2375 (daytime)
South Hadley, MA, USA        | Snail Mail: J. Botz, 01075-0629