🚀 go-pugleaf

  In response to the message from Sean Fulton to which this message is a
response, I sent Sean an E-mail message, since I didn't think that what I had
to say to him was of significant interest to the other participants in this
discussion.  However, the responses which I received from him were so
enlightening and informative that I would like to share them (with his
permission) with the rest of the people in this discussion.  I provide the
conversation below, without comment.

  The mail from Sean doesn't really say much that's relevant to the discussion
of Rich Salz and comp.sources.unix, but it says quite a bit about Mr. Fulton.

  Incidentally, the profanity in Mr. Fulton's message has been censored
slightly to protect the more innocent of the readers of this newsgroup :-).

-- 
Jonathan Kamens			              USnail:
MIT Project Athena				11 Ashford Terrace
jik@Athena.MIT.EDU				Allston, MA  02134
Office: 617-253-8085			      Home: 617-782-0710

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Date: Sun, 16 Dec 90 16:50:30 -0500
From: Jonathan I. Kamens <jik@pit-manager.MIT.EDU>
To: sean@utoday.com (Sean Fulton)
Cc: jik@pit-manager.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: The responsibilities of volunteers

In article <1850@utoday.com> you write:
|> My comment had little to do with people reasonably discussing the need
|> for change. My comment was sparked more by a series of nasty, somewhat
|> belittling notes about a person who *has* contributed a great deal to
|> the net.
|> 
|> What I *said*, was that the people attacking this individual seemed to
|> be primarily students, and somewhat impatient ones at that, while
|> those defending Rich's record seemed to be professionals with a few
|> more years on the job. True there were nasty comments from
|> non-students as well, but it appeared at the time that the personal
|> attacks were started by a couple of people who happened to be
|> students.
|> 
|> By the way, I would not classify people who are asking for a change in
|> the moderation of a group as ``bashers'' of the moderator as you did.
|> ``For'' and ``Against'' seem like suitable categories, but to lump
|> them in with people who make childish attacks on a moderator is really
|> unfair. I mean, I volunteered in  to help out. Does that
|> classify *me* as a basher?

  Come on, Sean, you know as well as I do that what you *didn't* say in your
message is as relevant as what you *said*.  Let me examine both of those. 
What you said, exactly, was:

|> Let me get this straight: The Rich Salz bashers are a couple of
|> students at Yale; the Rich Salz defenders are mostly professionals who
|> take time away from making money to contribute to Usenet.
|> 
|> Does this seem strange to anyone?

  Now, first of all, it is *you* who made the classification into two groups,
"Rich Salz bashers" and "Rich Salz defenders."  You explained nothing about
what you meant by those classifications.  It seems to me that the logical
conclusion to draw are that the "bashers" are those people who have said bad
things about Rich OR ABOUT COMP.SOURCES.UNIX, and the "defenders" are those
people who have defended against such accusations.

  Your use of "the" above, i.e. "*the* Rich Salz bashers" and "*the* Rich Salz
defenders" implies a division into two groups with no groups besides those
two.  Otherwise, you would have said "most of," or perhaps you would have left
out the "the"s.  But you didn't.  My interpretation, and I suspect the
interpretation of most other readers of your message was that you were
"drawing a line," so to speak, and putting people on one side of it or the
other.

  You can try to squirm out of it with quaint rationalizations for what you
said, but the fact remains that what you *said* sounds like you are doing
exactly what I attacked in my response.

  And, in any case, no, I do not think it's true that most of the people who
are attacking Rich are students.  I think I disproved that rather convincingly
in my response.  I also think that your comments about students and
professionals is a Red Herring; I notice that you did not respond to the
portion of my message which pointed that out.  Students contribute as much to
the net as "professionals;" furthermore, students take time out from getting
better grades in their classes in order to contribute to the Usenet.  I find
your attitudes about students vs. professionals on the Usenet to be offensive
and childish.

-- 
Jonathan Kamens			              USnail:
MIT Project Athena				11 Ashford Terrace
jik@Athena.MIT.EDU				Allston, MA  02134
Office: 617-253-8085			      Home: 617-782-0710

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Subject: Re: The responsibilities of volunteers
To: uunet!pit-manager.MIT.EDU!jik@uunet.UU.NET (Jonathan I. Kamens)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 90 7:33:45 EST
From: Sean Fulton <sean@utoday.com>
In-Reply-To: <9012162150.AA15349@pit-manager.MIT.EDU>; from "Jonathan I. Kamens" at Dec 16, 90 4:50 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL0]

Listen you boring little f**k, don't *ever* presume to tell me what I
wrote or didn't write. Tell me about your perverted interpretations,
but don't try to tell me what I said.

> [included the text of the entire message from me, with no comments]

-- 
Sean Fulton					sean@utoday.com
UNIX Today!					(516) 562-5430

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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 90 22:23:48 -0500
From: "Jonathan I. Kamens" <jik@pit-manager.MIT.EDU>
Sender: jik@pit-manager.MIT.EDU
To: sean@utoday.com
In-Reply-To: Sean Fulton's message of Mon, 17 Dec 90 7:33:45 EST <9012170733.AA02736@utoday.com>
Subject: The responsibilities of volunteers

   Date: Mon, 17 Dec 90 7:33:45 EST
   From: Sean Fulton <sean@utoday.com>
   X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL0]

   Listen you boring little fuck, don't *ever* presume to tell me what I
   wrote or didn't write. Tell me about your perverted interpretations,
   but don't try to tell me what I said.

Two things:

  1) You might want to mention to your boss that I have just decided
never to subscribe to "Unix Today!" because of your most recent mail
message.  I don't patronize businesses whose employees are as rude to
me as this.

  2) Do you mind if I quote your last message on the net?  It's just
so informative that I want everyone to be able to see it.

Jonathan Kamens			              USnail:
MIT Project Athena				11 Ashford Terrace
jik@Athena.MIT.EDU				Allston, MA  02134
Office: 617-253-8085			      Home: 617-782-0710

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Subject: Re: The responsibilities of volunteers
To: uunet!pit-manager.MIT.EDU!jik@uunet.UU.NET (Jonathan I. Kamens)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 90 9:09:29 EST
From: Sean Fulton <sean@utoday.com>
In-Reply-To: <9012190323.AA22053@pit-manager.MIT.EDU>; from "Jonathan I. Kamens" at Dec 18, 90 10:23 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL0]

	Let me elaborate a bit on my last message.

	1) UNIX Today! has a controlled circulation of 75,000, and a
waiting list of about 6,000. To subscribe, you need to be *qualified*
by our circulation department, which I doubt you have. Even if you had
been and decided not to subscribe, your action would only free a space
for someone on our waiting list. 

	2) Please learn to use the word ``patronize'' correctly. Try a
dictionary, that should help.

	3) You are free to post whatever you like, however, net
etiquette would prohibit you from posting obscenities to many of the
groups in which your rantings currently appear. If you were'nt such a
baby, you'd know that.

	4) You're just an insecure ego looking for a cause to fight.
Your last mail tells me this. You have nothing productive to offer, you 
fight simply for the thrill of battle.

> [included the text of the entire message from me, with no comments]

-- 
Sean Fulton					sean@utoday.com
UNIX Today!					(516) 562-5430
 /* The opinions expressed above are not those of my employer */

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Subject: Re: The responsibilities of volunteers
To: uunet!pit-manager.MIT.EDU!jik@uunet.UU.NET (Jonathan I. Kamens)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 90 8:53:39 EST
From: Sean Fulton <sean@utoday.com>
In-Reply-To: <9012190323.AA22053@pit-manager.MIT.EDU>; from "Jonathan I. Kamens" at Dec 18, 90 10:23 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL0]

	Jon,
		Grow up. Idle threats are meaningless. 

> [included the same message which was included above, once again with no
>  comments]

-- 
Sean Fulton					sean@utoday.com
UNIX Today!					(516) 562-5430

> [included the same message again (yes, again, twice in the same mail
>  message), once again with no comments]

-- 
Sean Fulton					sean@utoday.com
UNIX Today!					(516) 562-5430
 /* The opinions expressed above are not those of my employer */