🚀 go-pugleaf

Bruce@Pixar.com (Bruce Perens) writes:

> I've become convinced that no effort to influence posters to be more
> polite will succeed, and thus I've abandoned my proposal for "a system
> to discourage rude postings" and other such things.

Bruce, don't be so discouraged.  Rest assured that your proposals
are noticed, and somewhere, sometime, they will eventually have
some effect.  As you have already admitted, it is extremely hard
to change the system that is already in place.  In fact, it is
likely impossible for any one person to have an immediate impact
on what goes on here.  So don't take yourself so seriously - you
have made an honest effort to contribute, and that is the most
important thing.

Regards,        :->

Brad Crockett, Duncan, British Columbia, Canada
bcrock@happy.nuts.almanac.bc.ca           :->

According to Bruce@Pixar.com (Bruce Perens):
>One test of the effectiveness of an electronic forum is the degree to
>which it is taken seriously by _outsiders_.

I rather like having outsiders look down on Usenet as unimportant.  It
dicourages a lot of attention that might turn to efforts at control.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini

In article <1992Oct28.013523.6946@pixar.com> Bruce@Pixar.com (Bruce Perens) writes:
>My original error was in underestimating the fervor with which news
>administrators and news users in general embrace the anarchic nature
>of news. The consensus appears to be that the need for freedom of
>expression _in_any_manner_ overrules their distaste of the occasional
>abuse of that freedom. I should have seen this from the reaction a decade
>ago to the plans to moderate all news groups so that they could be carried
>on Stargate.

I would express it differently.  The right to freedom of expression
is so valued by the USENET community that they would not willingly 
divest themselves of that right to a self appointed arbiter (or
arbiters) of what is "proper".

Besides, anyone that mouths off to nastily is very quickly deluged
with such an excessive amount of mail that only the real masochists
persist.

>One test of the effectiveness of an electronic forum is the degree to
>which it is taken seriously by _outsiders_. The most sucessful netnews

One test of one's self esteem is the extent to which you are NOT
affected by other's adverse opinions of you.  Maybe we (as a forum) 
just have good self esteem....

(hey, I'm from california, they had a government convened self-esteem 
task force here...)

>earning the respect that RISKS has gained. I now believe that the natural
>stratification of the usenet into structured and moderated discussion
>forums that exist in parallel with anarchic anything-goes newsgroups is  
>its best hope.
>					Bruce Perens

You may be right in this.  The hope of the world is USENET and freedome
of communications.



		O   \
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		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@uLogic.COM

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Disco isn't dead...			...it's just in witness protection!

In article <2AEFF06D.8ED9@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to Bruce@Pixar.com (Bruce Perens):
>>One test of the effectiveness of an electronic forum is the degree to
>>which it is taken seriously by _outsiders_.
>
>I rather like having outsiders look down on Usenet as unimportant.  It
>dicourages a lot of attention that might turn to efforts at control.

Amen.
-- 

Rick Kelly	rmk@rmkhome.UUCP	unixland!rmkhome!rmk	rmk@frog.UUCP

Bruce@Pixar.com (Bruce Perens) writes:

> I should have seen this from the reaction a decade
>ago to the plans to moderate all news groups so that they could be carried
>on Stargate.

Moderate all newsgroups!?! Was that a serious suggestion!?!?

>One test of the effectiveness of an electronic forum is the degree to
>which it is taken seriously by _outsiders_. The most successful netnews
>group in this respect appears to be comp.risks, which has gained something
>of the respect of a professional journal, and is often quoted in print.
>The structure and style of RISKS is quite different from that of the
>usenet in general, and this structure has been an important tool in
>earning the respect that RISKS has gained.

Usenet is not and does not want to be like a professional journal.
Newsgroups are a great media for fast interactive discussions between
peers, something that the one-way communication of a professional journal
never can replace. Besides many groups deals mostly with opinions,
something not well suited for a respected organ.

 
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 

In article <1992Oct31.194008.4492@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
:
:Usenet is not and does not want to be like a professional journal.
:Newsgroups are a great media for fast interactive discussions between
:peers, something that the one-way communication of a professional journal
:never can replace. Besides many groups deals mostly with opinions,
:something not well suited for a respected organ.

I beg to differ, with all my heart.				:)


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And when you stop and think about it	|
(you won't believe it's true)		|	-Richard Hartman	
That all the love you've been giving	|	hartman@uLogic.COM
has all been meant for you.		|

In <1992Oct31.194008.4492@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:

>Bruce@Pixar.com (Bruce Perens) writes:

>> I should have seen this from the reaction a decade
>>ago to the plans to moderate all news groups so that they could be carried
>>on Stargate.

>Moderate all newsgroups!?! Was that a serious suggestion!?!?

I don't mind if it is a serious suggestion as long as he volunteers
to do it all.  If he volunteers the conversion will be very quick.
Everyone will just need to do the following:

echo 'rorschak@daimi.aau.dk' >/usr/lib/news/mailpaths
echo '*:rorschak@daimi.aau.dk' >/usr/lib/news/moderators
innctld throttle ynot || locknews
cp /usr/lib/news/active /usr/lib/news/active.old
awk </usr/lib/news/active.old >/usr/lib/news/active '{ $4 = "m"; print }'
innctld go ynot || exit

>Usenet is not and does not want to be like a professional journal.
>Newsgroups are a great media for fast interactive discussions between
>peers, something that the one-way communication of a professional journal
>never can replace. Besides many groups deals mostly with opinions,
>something not well suited for a respected organ.

Agreed.

Tom
-- 
Tom Limoncelli -- tal@warren.mentorg.com (work) -- tal@plts.uucp (play)
"I like Bill Clinton tremendously.  I know him from the governors' conferences.
The Democrats nominated their best person, a very able fellow.  The country is
well served by that choice." -Bush's re-election chair in NJ (Thomas Kean)