🚀 go-pugleaf

In la.general Karen Toombs <ktoombs@idt.net> wrote:
: Kids hate school?  Some talk a good line, but in my experience, just not so.

Matters on how the school is run/taught. Many kids do not like school.
They go because it is the babysitting service while their parents work. On
the other hand there are many who love it as it is the social playground
on which their lives revolve. Some like it because they enjoy learning...
but some do hate it. As with any experience in life there are people at
all points of the like/dislike scale.

: Perhaps this is true in certain sectors of the population - I don't know.  My
: immediate concern is on the elementary school level, where I see a good number of
: kids in 3 and 4th grade wearing baggies.  Though I'm sure that they're not
: involved with drugs, it doesn't look good.  Usually, these same kids have an
: 'attitude' whereby when they get older, you wouldn't be terribly surprised to find
: them getting into trouble.

Conclusion.......--------->......jump

Some kids develop "attitudes" without ever wearing baggies. Some kids who
wear baggies go on to become presidents of companies... One kid who went
to school with me in High School, was a "druggie" and a "loser" went on to
become a Senior VP at GTE's corporate offices. Now, most people in that
clique didn't overcome the hole that they put themseleves into, but that
doesn't mean that they couldn't have.

:  If they were taught at this age that appearance does
: indeed count, and not permitted to wear certain types of clothing at certain
: times, the issues might not be so great for them in the upper school.

I couldn't agree with you more. So I'll sign you up as a member of Nudists
Of America, as we believe that all clothing stigmatizes children into
preconcieved roles. [for the humor impared, that was sarcasm]

In simple terms... parnets teach values and help define the roles that
thie children will fill. It has nothing to do with clothing. It has to do
with how adults who have kids parent those kids. It has nothing to do with
school, it has to do with parenting!

:  If people
: dress one way to go to church or synagogue, why can't a similar standard be set
: for school?  And what of all the private schools requiring uniforms?  I think that
: they turn out a large percentage of very successful adults.

As a percentage of the general population can you provide evidence that
children educated in private schools become succesful adults more often
than those educated in public schools? Please state any studies that
support the above statment. [before you go looking for one... there
aren't.]

Studies of children who are "troubled" have consistantly shown that the
breakdon occures in the home. Behavioal psychologists may disagree on many
things, but almost all agree that "nurture" has a direct role in
developing proper bahavior patterns in children. This is not new stuff.
You can look at the work of Anna Freud, Eric Ericson, Skinner, et al. All
have shown that development patterns are established in an environment
where the nurturer takes an active role in establishing the behavior
patterns.

I really hate to thow "research" into this discussion, but it is a much
better tool than conclusion jumping.

: School is a fun place.  The stuff the kids are doing now makes it more like going
: to camp than school.

Please, tell me what a school is supposed to do. What is it's role? Is the
role of school to be a "fun place" or like camp"? What is the expectation
and goal of the school system? What, as a parent, do you expect or want
from the public school?

:  Even wearing uniforms, which I am not advocating
: (necessarily) would not diminish the enjoyment.  If kids wore, for the sake of
: arguement, blue pants or skirts and white shirts with collars, with the shirts
: tucked in, they would still be dressed comfortably.  They don't need to wear sweat
: pants and oversized T shirts to be comfortable.  School is not the place for that
: kind of attire.

I would prefer is they all went to school nude myself. that way we
wouldn't have any problems with hidden weapons. Additionally we could
teach them not to be so obsessed with the shape of their person, or
another. By eliminating body taboo's we would be able to focus on
educating them in a way that they can all focus on learning, rather than
wondering what is budding under some girls sweater or growing in some boys
pants. [for the record, I don't really have an opinion on uniforms, but I
think this rush to judgement that they are good makes about as much sense
as the above paragraph pointing out why school should be taught in the
nude]

: > You can't judge a book by its cover, and the bad apples are always going to
: > be there.
: True, true.  And the really bad ones, which can be counted on one hand in my
: school, will continue to be so, even dressed in a suit and tie.  The kids who
: would benefit the most are the ones who eventually will come to understand the
: reasoning behind proper attire, and come to value it.

You seem to think that "clothes make the person". I propose that clothes
differentiate people based on thier ability to afford clothes. That for
true equality in school clothes shouldn't be worn at all. In simple terms,
there is no "proper attire". I wear clothing based on what i choose to
wear. Yesterday I was in a suit, today I'm in jeans and a t-shirt. I
haven't changed, nor has my abilities. Yesterday i choose to wear one
thing, based on my desire to impress someone to whome clothes does matter,
today I don't have to. Was the code I wrote better yesterday as I wore my
suit? Nope.

There is no "value" to "proper attire" other than that which others choose
to associate to it. I prefer to live my life on my terms, not on those
dictated by popular culture (and this comes from a person who still has a
pair of "silk parachute pants" in his closet from the days when that was
the "right thing to wear".).

: > >> >If you can maintain discipline in the schools and the classroom, then
: > >> >you can begin to "teach" the students. Many high school graduates now --
: > >> >don't even know how to spell words they should have learned in the 4th
: > >> >grade. But they know how to roll a joint!
: This is certainly a valid point.  In many parts of our country, kids are being
: pushed through the system, just to get them out.  They have 'street smarts' not an
: education.

No, this is the point missed. The education system is failing because
parents haven't taken responsibility for raising their own kids. It is not
the schools job to teach your kids right and wrong. It is not the school
systems job to give them an ethical backbone. It is not the school systems
job to "babysit" troubled kids while their parents work. 

If you want to change the educational system, create rules. Make the kids
follow them. If they don't follow the rules then they are not permitted to
be educated at that facility. Suspend kids! Expell kids! If mom or dad has
to miss a few days of work to stay home with a kid, and that translates to
real dollars, a real cost to the family, then maybe they will take their
job of being a parent with a larger dose of responsibility.

As for parents who whine "my kid is uncontrolable and I don't know what to
do, "TAKE A CLASS IN PARENTING. Learn how to become a parent. Maybe you
should consider sterilization since you can't parent. Having a kid means
taking on a very large responsibility. many peple have kids who aren't up
to the task of taking on that responsibility, but the system should become
a parent for them because they can't... it should help teach them how to
parent and hold them responsible for the uncontrolled little monsters that
they produce.

jmi