Article View: nl.beurs
Article #320Re: het spel van verlies
From: ivo2
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:51
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:51
581 lines
26757 bytes
26757 bytes
Bedankt Straver, om dit aan onze Belgische beleggers uit te leggen.
ivo2
"MENTOR" <ten-for@freeler.nl> schreef in bericht
news:3ead1e78.8019811@textnews.casema.net...
>
> Een spel van verlies
>
>
> Commissionairs, beurzen en adviseurs voeren grote reclamecampagnes om
> meer verliezers naar de markten te lokken. Sommigen wijzen erop dat
> de handel in termijn contracten een zogenaamd zero-sum game is. Zij
> rekenen erop dat de meeste mensen denken dat ze slimmer zijn dan de
> rest en verwachten te winnen in eer zero-sumgame. De winnaars in een
> zero-sum game verdienen net zoveel als de verliezers verliezen.
>
> Wanneer u en ik 10 dollar wedden op de richting van de volgende
> beweging van 100 punten in de index dan zal een van ons 10 dollar
> verdienen en de ander 10 dollar verliezen. Degene die het slimste is
> zal in de loop van de tijd dit spel winnen.
>
> De mensen geloven in de propaganda van de industrie over de zero-sum
> game en gaan aan de slag. Zij realiseren zich niet dat zij bezig zijn
> met een minus sum game. De winnaars krijgen minder
> dan wat de verliezers verliezen omdat de industrie ook geld uit de
> markt haalt.
> De roulette in het casino is een minus-sum game omdat het casino 3 to
> 6 procent van de inzet moet verdienen. Daarom is roulette op de lange
> duur niet te winnen. U en ik kunnen in een minus-sum game
> terechtkomen wanneer wij onze weddenschap niet rekenen met elkaar
> afsluiten, maar door bemiddeling van een tussenpersoon. Wanneer wij
> afrekenen heeft de verliezer 13 dollar verloren en de winnaar 7 dollar
> gewonnen en de twee tussenpersonen gaan lachend naar de bank.
> Commissies en marges zijn voor de handelaren hetzelfde als de
> belastingen voor een ieder van ons. Een handelaar moet zijn
> commissionair en de machinerie van de beurzen onderhouden voordat hij
> iets kan verdienen. Het beter doen dan het gemiddelde is eenvoudig
> niet goed genoeg. U moet met kop en schouders boven de massa
> uitsteken om een minus-sum game te winnen.
>
> Uit het boek van ALEX elder "Verdienen Met Beleggen"
>
>
> THE DEADLY ART OF STOCK MANIPULATION
>
> In every profession, there are probably a dozen or two major rules.
> Knowing them cold is what separates the professional from the amateur.
>
> Not knowing them at all? Well, let's put it this way: How safe would
> you feel if you suddenly found yourself piloting (solo) a Boeing 747
> as
> it were landing on an airstrip?
>
> Unless you are a professional pilot, you would probably be frightened
> out of your wits and would soil your underwear. Hold that thought as
> you read this essay
>
> ... because I will explain to you how market manipulation works.
>
> In order to successfully speculate, one should presume the following:
> THE SMALL CAP STOCK MARKETS PRIMARILY EXIST TO FLEECE YOU!
>
> I'm talking about Vancouver, Alberta, the Canadian Dealing Network and
>
> the US Over-the Counter markets (Pink Sheets, Bulletin Board, etc.).
> One could also stretch this, with many stocks, to include the world's
> senior stock markets, including Toronto, New York, NASDAQ, London,
> etc.
>
> The average investor or speculator is not very likely to have much
> success in the small cap crapshoots.
>
> I guess that is what attracted ME to these markets. I have been
> trying,
> for quite some time, to answer this question, "How come?" Now, I know.
>
> And you should, too!
>
> "While these speculative companies do not actually make any money, one
>
> can profit by speculating in these companies."
>
> That is the premise on how these markets are run, by both the stock
> promoters, insiders, brokers, analysts and others in this industry.
> That logic is flawed in that it presumes "someone else" is going to
> end
> up holding the dirty bag.
>
> Follow this premise all the way through and you will realize the
> insane
> conclusion:
>
> For these markets to continue along that route, new suckers have to
> continue coming into the marketplace. The conclusion is insane in that
>
> such mad activity can only be short-lived. I disagree with this
> premise
> and propose another solution
>
> What the professionals and the securities regulators know and
> understand, which the rest of us do not, is this.
>
>
> "RULE #1:
>
> ALL SHARP PRICE MOVEMENTS -- WHETHER UP OR DOWN -- ARE THE RESULT OF
> ONE OR MORE (USUALLY A GROUP OF) PROFESSIONALS MANIPULATING THE SHARE
> PRICE."
>
> This should explain why a mining company finds something good and
> "nothing happens" or the stock goes down. At the sametime, for NO
> apparent reason, a stock suddenly takes off for the sky! On little
> volume! Someone is manipulating that stock, often with an unfounded
> rumor.
>
> In order to make these market manipulations work, the professionals
> assume: (a) The Public is STUPID and (b) The Public will mainly buy at
>
> the HIGH and (c) The Public will sell at the LOW. Therefore, as long
> as
> the market manipulator can run crowd control, he can be successful.
>
> Let's face it: The reason you speculate in such markets is that you
> are
> greedy AND optimistic. You believe in a better tomorrow and NEED to
> make money quickly. It is this sentiment which is exploited by the
> market manipulator. He controls YOUR greed and fear about a particular
>
> stock. If he wants you to buy, the company's prospects look like the
> next Microsoft. If the manipulator wants you to desert the sinking
> ship, he suddenly becomes very guarded in his remarks about the
> company, isn't around to glowingly answer questions about the company
> and/or GETS issued very bad news about the company. Which brings us to
>
> the next important rule.
>
> "RULE #2:
>
> IF THE MARKET MANIPULATOR WANTS TO DISTRIBUTE (DUMP) HIS SHARES, HE
> WILL START A GOOD NEWS PROMOTIONAL CAMPAIGN."
>
> Ever wonder why a particular company is made to look like the greatest
>
> thing since sliced bread? That sentiment is manufactured. Newsletter
> writers are hired -- either secretly or not -- to cheerlead a stock.
> PR
> firms are hired and let loose upon an unsuspecting public. Contracts
> to
> appear on radio talk shows are signed and implemented. Stockbrokers
> get
> "cheap" stock to recommend the company to their "book" (that means
> YOU,
> the client in his book). An advertising campaign is rolled out
> (television ads, newspaper ads, card deck mailings). The company signs
>
> up to exhibit at "investment conferences" and "gold shows" (mainly so
> they can get a little "podium time" to hype you on their stock and
> tell
> you how "their company is really different" and "not a stock
> promotion.") Funny little "hype" messages are posted on Internet
> newsgroups by the same cast of usual suspects. The more, the merrier.
> And a little "juice" can go a long way toward running up the stock
> price.
>
> The HYPE is on. The more clever a stock promoter, the better his
> knowledge of the advertising business. Little gimmicks like
> "positioning" are used. Example: Make a completely unknown company
> look
> warm and fuzzy and appealing to you by comparing it to a recent
> success
> story, Diamond Fields or Bre-X Minerals. That is the POSITIONING
> gospel, authored by Ries and Trout (famous for "Avis: We Want To Be #
> 1" and "We Try Harder" and other such slogans). These advertising/PR
> executives must have stumbled onto this formula after losing their
> shirts speculating in a few Canadian stock promotions! The only reason
>
> you have been invited to this seemingly incredible banquet is that YOU
>
> are the main course. After the market manipulator has suckered you
> into
> "his investment," exchanging HIS paper for YOUR cash, the walls begin
> to close in on you. Why is that?
>
> "RULE #3
>
> AS SOON AS THE MARKET MANIPULATOR HAS COMPLETED HIS DISTRIBUTION
> (DUMPING) OF SHARES, HE WILL START A BAD NEWS OR NO NEWS CAMPAIGN."
>
>
> Your favorite home-run stock has just stalled or retreated a bit from
> its high. Suddenly, there is a news VACUUM. Either NO news or BAD
> rumors. I discovered this with quite a few stocks. I would get LOADS
> of
> information and "hot tips." All of a sudden, my pipeline was shut-off.
>
> Some companies would even issue a news release CONDEMNING me ("We
> don't
> need 'that kind of hype' referring to me!). Cute, huh? When the
> company
> wanted fantastic hype circulated hither and yon, there would be
> someone
> there to spoon-feed me. The second the distribution phase was
> DONE....ooops! Sorry, no more news. Or, "I'm sorry. He's not in the
> office." Or, "He won't be back until Monday."
>
> The really slick market manipulators would even seed the Internet news
>
> groups or other journalists to plant negative stories about that
> company. Or start a propaganda campaign of negative rumors on all
> available communication vehicles. Even hiring a "contrarian" or
> "special PR firm" to drive down the price. Even hiring someone to
> attack the guy who had earlier written glowingly about the company.
> (This is not a game for the faint-hearted!)
>
> You'll also see the stock drifting endlessly. You may even experience
> a
> helpless feeling, as if you were floating in outer space without a
> lifeline. That is exactly HOW the market manipulator wants you to
> feel.
> See Rule Number Five below. He may also be doing this to avoid the
> severe disappointment of a "dry hole" or a "failed deal." You'll hear
> that oft-cried refrain, "Oh well, that's the junior minerals
> exploration business... very risky!" Or the oft-quoted statistic,
> "Nine
> out of 10 businesses fail each year and this IS a Venture Capital
> Startup stock exchange." Don't think it wasn't contrived. If a
> geologist at a junior mining company wasn't optimistic and rosy in his
>
> promise of exploration success, he would be replaced by someone who
> was! Ditto for the high-tech deal, in a world awash with PhD's.
>
> So, how do you know when you are being taken? Look again at Rule #1.
> Inside that rule, a few other rules unfold which explain how a stock
> price is manipulated.
>
>
> "RULE #4
>
> ANY STOCK THAT TRADES HUGE VOLUME AT HIGHER PRICES SIGNALS THE
> DISTRIBUTION PHASE."
>
> When there was less volume, the price was lower. Professionals were
> accumulating. After the price runs, the volume increases. The
> professionals bought low and sold high. The amateurs bought high (and
> will soon enough sell low). In older books about market manipulation
> and stock promotion, which I've recently studied, the markup price
> referred to THREE times higher than the floor. The floor is the launch
>
> pad for the stock. For example, if one looks at the stock price and
> finds a steady flatline on the stock's chart of around 10 cents, then
> that range is the FLOOR. Basically, the markup phase can go as high as
>
> the market manipulator is capable of taking it. From my observations,
> a
> good markup should be able to run about five to ten times higher than
> the floor, with six to seven being common. The market manipulator will
>
> do everything in his power to keep you OUT OF THE STOCK until the
> share
> price has been marked up by at least two-three times, sometimes
> resorting to "shaking you out" until after he has accumulated enough
> shares. Once the markup has begun, the stock chart will show you one
> or
> more spikes in the volume -- all at much higher prices (marked up by
> the manipulator, of course). That is DISTRIBUTION and nothing else.
>
> Example: Look at Software Control Systems (Alberta: XVN), in which I
> purchased shares after it had been marked up five times.There were
> eight days of 500,000 (plus) shares trading hands, with one day of
> 750,000 shares trading hands. Market manipulator(s) dumping shares
> into
> the volume at higher prices. WHENEVER you see HUGE volume after the
> stock has risen on a 75 degree angle, the distribution phase has
> started and you are likely to be buying in at or near the stock's peak
>
> price.
>
> Example: Look at Diamond Fields (TSE: DFR), which never increased at a
>
> 75 degree angle and did not have abnormal volume spikes, yet in less
> than two years ran from C$4 to C$160/share.
>
> Example: Look at Bre-X Minerals (Alberta: BXM), which did not
> experience its first 75 degree angle, with huge volume until July
> 14th,
> 1995. The next two trading days, BXM went down and stayed around C
> $12/share for two weeks. The volume had been 60% higher nearly a month
>
> earlier, with only a slight price increase. Each high volume and
> spectacular increase in BXM's share price was met with a price retreat
>
> and leveling off. "Suddenly," BXM wasn't trading at C$2/share; it was
> at C$170/share.... up 8500% in less than a year!
>
> In both of the above cases, major Canadian newspapers ran extremely
> negative stories about both companies, at one time or another. In each
>
> instance, just before another share price run up,retail investors fled
>
> the stock! Just before both began yet another run up! Successful
> short-
> term speculators generally exit any stock run up when the volume
> soars;
> amateurs get greedy and buy at those points.
>
> "RULE #5
>
> THE MARKET MANIPULATOR WILL ALWAYS TRY TO GET YOU TO BUY AT THE
> HIGHEST, AND SELL AT THE LOWEST PRICE POSSIBLE."
>
> Just as the manipulator will use every available means to invite you
> to
> "the party," he will savagely and brutally drive you away from "his
> stock" when he has fleeced you. The first falsehood you assume is that
>
> the stock promoter WANTS you to make a bundle by investing in his
> company. So begins a string of lies that run for as long as your
> stomach can take it.
>
> You will get the first clue that "you have been had" when the stock
> stalls at the higher level. Somehow, it ran out of steam and you are
> not sure why. Well, it ran out of steam because the market manipulator
>
> stopped running it up. It's over inflated and he can't convince more
> people to buy. The volume dries up while the shareprice seems to
> stall.
>
> LOOK AT THE TRADING VOLUME, NOT THE SHARE PRICE!
>
> When earlier, there may have been 500,000 shares trading each day for
> eight out of 12 trading days (as in the case of Software Control
> Systems), now the volume has slipped to 100,000 shares (or so) daily.
> There are some buyers there, enough for the manipulator to continue
> dumping his paper, but only so long as he can enlist one or more
> individuals/services to bang his drum.
>
> He may continue feeding the promo guys a string of "promises" and
> "good
> news down the road." (Believe me, this HAS happened to me!) But, when
> the news finally arrives, the stock price goes THUD! This is entirely
> orchestrated by a market manipulator. You'll see it in the trading
> volume, most of which is CONTRIVED. A market manipulator will have
> various brokers buying and selling the stock to give the APPEARANCE of
>
> increasing volume and price so that YOU do start chasing it higher.
>
> At some point during the stall stage, investors get fed up with the
> non-performance of the stock. It drifts for a while, in a steady
> retreat, with perhaps a short-lived spike in price and volume (the
> final signal that the manipulator has finally offloaded ALL of his
> paper). Then, the stock comes tumbling down -- having lost ALL of the
> earlier share appreciation.
>
>
> Sometimes, with the more cruel manipulators, they will throwin a
> little
> false hope... giving you a little more rope so they can better hang
> you. Just after a severe drop, there will be a "bottom fishing"
> announcement which sends the share price up a bit on high volume,
> rises
> a little more after that and then continues to drift. Meanwhile, you
> keep getting "shaken out" through a cruel drip-drip water torture of
> the share price's slow retreat. Again, virtually every movement is
> completely orchestrated.
>
>
> "RULE #6
>
> IF THIS IS A REAL DEAL, THEN YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE THE LAST PERSON TO
> BE
> NOTIFIED OR WILL BE DRIVEN OUT AT THE LOWER PRICES."
>
> Like Jesse Livermore wrote, "If there's some easy money lying around,
> no one is going to force it into your pocket." The same concept can be
>
> more clearly understood by watching the tape. When a market
> manipulator
> wants you into his stock, you will hear LOUD noises of stock promotion
>
> and hype. If you are "in the loop," you will be bombarded from many
> directions. Similarly, if he wants you out of the stock, then there
> will be orchestrated rumors being circulated, rapid-fired at you again
>
> from many directions. Just as good news may come to you in waves, so
> will bad news.
>
> You will see evidence of a VERY sharp drop in the share price with
> HUGE
> volume. That is you and your buddies running for the exits. If the
> deal
> is really for real, the market manipulator wants to get ALL OF YOUR
> SHARES or as many as he can... and at the lowest price he can. Whereas
>
> before, he wanted you IN his market, so he could dump his shares to
> you
> at a higher price, NOW when he sees that this deal IS for real, he
> wants to pay as little as possible for those same shares... YOUR
> shares
> which he wants to you part with, as quickly as possible.
>
> The market manipulator will shake you out by DRIVING the price as low
> as he can.
>
> Just as in the "accumulation" stage, he wants to keep everything as
> quiet as possible so he can snap up as many of the shares for himself,
>
> he will NOW turn down, or even turn off, the volume so he can repeat
> the accumulation phase.
>
> In the mining business, there seems to always be another "areaplay"
> around the corner. Just as Voisey's Bay drifted into oblivion, during
> the fourth quarter of 1995 and early into 1996, the same Voisey Bay
> "wannabees" began striking deals in Indonesia. Some even used new
> corporate entities. Same crooks, different shingles. The accumulation
> phase was TOP SECRET. The noise level was deadly silent. As soon as
> the
> insiders accumulated all their shares, they let YOU in on the secret.
>
> "RULE #7
>
> CONVERSELY, YOU WILL OFTEN BE THE LAST TO KNOW WHEN THIS DEAL SHOWS
> SIGNS OF FAILURE."
>
> Twenty-twenty hindsight will often show you that there was a "little
> stumble" in the share price, just as the "assays were delayed" or the
> "deal didn't go through." Manipulators were peeling off their paper to
>
> START the downslide. And ACCELERATE it. The quick slide down makes it
> improbable for your getting out at more than what you originally paid
> for the stock... and gives you a better reason for holding onto it "a
> little longer" in case the price rebounds. Then, the drifting stage
> begins and fear takes over. And unless you have serves of steel and
> can
> afford to wait out the manipulator, you will more than likely end up
> selling out at a cheap price.
>
> For the insider, market maker or underwriter is obliged to buy back
> all
> of your paper in order to keep his company alive and maintain control
> of it. The less he has to pay for your paper, the lower his cost will
> be to commence his stock promotion again... at some future date. Even
> if his company has no prospects AT ALL, his "shell" of a company has
> some value (only in that others might want to use that structure so
> they can run their own stock promotion). So, the manipulator WILL buy
> back his paper. He just wants to make sure that he pays as little for
> those shares as possible.
>
> "RULE #8
>
> THE MARKET MANIPULATOR WILL COMPEL YOU INTO THE STOCK SO THAT YOU
> DRIVE
> UP ITS PRICE SHARES."
>
> Placing a Market Order or Pre-Market Order is an amateur's mistake,
> typifying the US investor -- one who assumes that thinly traded issues
>
> are the same as blue chip stocks, to which they are accustomed.
>
> A market manipulator (traders included here) can jack up the share
> price during your market order and bring you back a confirmation at
> some preposterous level. The Market Manipulator will use the "tape"
> against you. He will keep buying up his own paper to keep you reaching
>
> for a higher price. He will get in line ahead of you to buy all the
> shares at the current price and force you to pay MORE for those
> shares.
> He will tease you and MAKE you reach for the higher price so you
> "won't
> miss out." Miss out on what? Getting your head chopped off, that's
> what! One can avoid market manipulation by not buying during the huge
> price spikes and abnormal trading volumes, also known as chasing the
> stock to a higher price.
>
> "RULE #9:
>
> THE MARKET MANIPULATOR IS WELL AWARE OF THE EMOTIONS YOU ARE
> EXPERIENCING DURING A RUN UP AND A COLLAPSE AND WILL PLAY YOUR
> EMOTIONS
> LIKE A PIANO."
>
> During the run up, you WILL have a rush of greed which compels you to
> run into the stock. During the collapse, you WILL have a fear that you
>
> will lose everything... so you will rush to exit. See how simple it is
>
> and how clear a bell it strikes? Don't think this formula isn't
> tattooed inside the mind of every manipulator. The market manipulator
> will play you on the way up and play you on the way down. If he does
> it
> very well, he will make it look like someone else's fault that you
> lost
> money! Promise to fill up your wallet? You'll rush into the stock.
> Scare you into losing every penny you have in that stock? You'll run
> away screaming with horror! And vow to NEVER, ever speculate in such
> stocks again. But many of you still do.... The manipulator even knows
> how to bring you back for yet another play.
>
> What actors! No wonder Vancouver is sometimes called "Hollywood
> North."
>
>
>
> "FINAL RULE: A NEW BATCH OF SUCKERS ARE BORN WITH EVERY NEW PLAY."
>
> The Financial Markets are a Cruel, Unkind and Dangerous Playing Field,
>
> one place where the newest amateurs are generally fleeced the most
> brutally.... usually by those who KNOW the above rules.
>
> Just as I have a duty to ensure that each of you understand how this
> game is played, YOU now have that same duty to guarantee that your
> fellow speculator understands these rules. Just as I would be a
> criminal for not making this data known to you, YOU would bejust as
> criminal to keep it a secret. There will always be an unsuspecting,
> trusting fool whom the rabid dogs will tear to shreds, but it does NOT
>
> have to be this way.
>
> IF every subscriber made this essay broadly known to his friends,
> acquaintances and family, and they passed it on to their friends, word
>
> of mouth could cause many of these market manipulators to pause. IF
> this effort were done strenuously by many, then perhaps the financial
> markets could weed out the crooked manipulators and the promoters
> could
> bring us more legitimate plays.
>
> The stock markets are a financing tool. The companies BORROW money
> from
> you, when you invest or speculate in their companies. They want their
> share price going higher so they can finance their deal with less
> dilution of their shares... if they are good guys. But, how would you
> feel about a friend or family member who kept borrowing money from you
>
> and never repaid it? That would be theft, plain and simple. So, a
> market manipulator is STEALING your money. Don't let him do it
> anymore.
> Insist that the company in which you invest be honest or straight...
> or
> find another company in which to speculate. Your money talks in LOUDER
>
> volumes than any stockpromotion scheme. ALWAYS refuse any deal which
> smells wrong.
>
> Refuse to tolerate the scams prevalent in the financial markets. This
> can ONLY be accomplished by KNOWING and USING the above rules.
> Thoroughly COMPLETE your due diligence on a company before risking a
> dime. Dig up the Insider Reports to find out who is blowing out their
> paper, how often they are blowing out their paper and whatever
> happened
> to their "last play."
>
> Begin to use this as YOUR rule of thumb: If the insider's paper is
> really worthless, then avoid it. Find another's whose paper DOES hold
> promise and honest possibilities. In these small cap stockmarkets, you
>
> are investing more in the INDIVIDUAL behind the play,than the
> "possibility" of the play itself. Ask yourself before speculating:
> Could I lend this person $5,000 for a year and hope to get it back? If
>
> not, then don't! Do it for your own good and the good of everyone else
>
> who is so foolish as to speculate in these financial markets!
>
> The truly sane and only somewhat safe solution to all of this: FIND
> GOOD COMPANIES IN WHICH TO SPECULATE AND GET INTO THEM AT THE GROUND
> FLOOR LEVEL. Anything else is criminal or stupid. This is a case where
>
> there really isn't a gray area. It's either Black or it's White. The
> company and its management are scamsters or they really intend to
> bring
> value to their shareholders.
>
> Author Unknown
> If you know the Author of this article please contact
> admin@netbored.com
>
>
>
> Does this article comes from bloodinthestreet.com?
Technical Details
Message-ID:
<3ea58f16$0$11348$ba620e4c@reader0.news.skynet.be>Path:
arc1-ca.pugleaf.net!archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!64.152.100.70.MISMATCH!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news100.image.dk!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!louie!tlk!not-for-mailReferences:
<3ead1e78.8019811@textnews.casema.net>Show Full Headers
Complete Article Headers
X-Google-Language: DUTCH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: fe92c,c6bd9be9f93470b5 X-Google-Attributes: gidfe92c,public X-Google-Thread: 1020be,c6bd9be9f93470b5 X-Google-Attributes: gid1020be,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-04-22 11:51:10 PST Path: arc1-ca.pugleaf.net!archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!64.152.100.70.MISMATCH!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news100.image.dk!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!louie!tlk!not-for-mail Reply-To: "ivo2" <aandelenNO@SPAMskynet.be> From: "ivo2" <aandelenNO@SPAMskynet.be> Newsgroups: nl.beurs,be.finance References: <3ead1e78.8019811@textnews.casema.net> Subject: Re: het spel van verlies Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:51:01 +0200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Lines: 583 Message-ID: <3ea58f16$0$11348$ba620e4c@reader0.news.skynet.be> Organization: -= Belgacom Usenet Service =- NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.240.171.159 X-Trace: 1051037465 reader0.news.skynet.be 11348 81.240.171.159:1210 X-Complaints-To: abuse@skynet.be