🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1178811685.557216.129340@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Tim Campbell  <timcall@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>I'm on an organic beekeeping list of about 1,000 people, mostly
>Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including
>commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list.

Somehow, I'm not surprised.

I think honey prices will naturally go up due to the massive die-off
of commercial bee hives, and this will be a boon to organic bee
farmers.

Well, it will be a boon until the commercial honey producers
successfully get the FDA to define "organic" in a way that benefits
them, but doesn't realistically qualify as organic.

-A

On Thu, 10 May 2007 16:04:40 +0000 (UTC), axlq <axlq@spamcop.net> wrote:
> In article <1178811685.557216.129340@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Tim Campbell  <timcall@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>I'm on an organic beekeeping list of about 1,000 people, mostly
>>Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including
>>commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list.
>
> Somehow, I'm not surprised.

	I have kept bees. What is an organic bee keeper?


-- 
All the computer people use Macs or Linux now. Windows is for
grandmas - Paul Graham, April 2007

On May 10, 10:41 am, Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 May 2007 16:04:40 +0000 (UTC), axlq <a...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> > In article <1178811685.557216.129...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> > Tim Campbell  <timc...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>I'm on an organic beekeeping list of about 1,000 people, mostly
> >>Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including
> >>commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list.
>
> > Somehow, I'm not surprised.
>
>         I have kept bees. What is an organic bee keeper?


Presumably, one who keeps his bees on organic flowers. I wonder what
the radius is around the hive, that one would be certain?


V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

Julian Macassey wrote:
> On Thu, 10 May 2007 16:04:40 +0000 (UTC), axlq <axlq@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> In article <1178811685.557216.129340@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>> Tim Campbell  <timcall@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> I'm on an organic beekeeping list of about 1,000 people, mostly
>>> Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including
>>> commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list.
>> Somehow, I'm not surprised.
> 
> 	I have kept bees. What is an organic bee keeper?
> 
> 

A carbon-based life form. You qualify.

On May 10, 1:47 pm, Dick Margulis <margul...@comcast.net> wrote:

> A carbon-based life form. You qualify.

This is all very interesting except for one thing; it's all BS.  There
is no recent problem with bee populations, it's a bogus story being
floated by global warming alarmist who want a ready made excuse for
expected decreases in citrus and produce harvest that were damaged by
unsusually cold periods this past winter.

If people start connecting less fruit to a colder winter it'll be
harder to keep them focused on global warmng claims and that can't be
allowed to happen... so they need another excuse,

Dick Margulis wrote:
> Julian Macassey wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 10 May 2007 16:04:40 +0000 (UTC), axlq <axlq@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <1178811685.557216.129340@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Tim Campbell  <timcall@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm on an organic beekeeping list of about 1,000 people, mostly
>>>> Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including
>>>> commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list.
>>>
>>> Somehow, I'm not surprised.
>>
>>
>>     I have kept bees. What is an organic bee keeper?
>>
>>
> 
> A carbon-based life form. You qualify.

How can you be sure?

-- 
Dan

p62c61 wrote:

> On May 10, 1:47 pm, Dick Margulis <margul...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>>A carbon-based life form. You qualify.
> 
> 
> This is all very interesting except for one thing; it's all BS.  There
> is no recent problem with bee populations, it's a bogus story being
> floated by global warming alarmist who want a ready made excuse for
> expected decreases in citrus and produce harvest that were damaged by
> unsusually cold periods this past winter.

Actually I saw one news show that suggested cell phone usage might be
interferring with bee navigation.  I didn't totally buy that since they
fly by scent and memory, I believe.

-- 
Dan

On 2007-05-10, Dan Logcher <dlogcher*xspam*@comcast.net> wrote:

> Actually I saw one news show that suggested cell phone usage might be
> interferring with bee navigation.  

Bogus theory spread by idiot media.  It's been proven completely
incorrect.

nb

Dan Logcher wrote:
> Dick Margulis wrote:
>> Julian Macassey wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 10 May 2007 16:04:40 +0000 (UTC), axlq <axlq@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <1178811685.557216.129340@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Tim Campbell  <timcall@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm on an organic beekeeping list of about 1,000 people, mostly
>>>>> Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including
>>>>> commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list.
>>>>
>>>> Somehow, I'm not surprised.
>>>
>>>
>>>     I have kept bees. What is an organic bee keeper?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> A carbon-based life form. You qualify.
> 
> How can you be sure?
> 

Well, it was a sane-sounding question from someone not using any variant 
of the name Saklad, so I took my chances.

As for the wingnut theory that the problem doesn't exist and is a bogus 
story being floated by global warming alarmists, I have a friend who is 
a research entomologist; and she'd be surprised to learn that alarmists 
are coming in the middle of the night and emptying out the hives she's 
studying. The leading candidate theory right now is that a particular 
pesticide that has gained widespread use in the last year or so is 
probably the culprit. Places where it is used are seeing the colony 
collapse problem. Places where it isn't used are not seeing it. If that 
turns out to be true, then the solution would seem to be rather simple 
from a scientific standpoint, even if it's difficult from a bureaucratic 
standpoint.

Dick Margulis wrote:
> Dan Logcher wrote:
>> Dick Margulis wrote:
>>> Julian Macassey wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 10 May 2007 16:04:40 +0000 (UTC), axlq <axlq@spamcop.net> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <1178811685.557216.129340@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> Tim Campbell  <timcall@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm on an organic beekeeping list of about 1,000 people, mostly
>>>>>> Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including
>>>>>> commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Somehow, I'm not surprised.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     I have kept bees. What is an organic bee keeper?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> A carbon-based life form. You qualify.
>>
>> How can you be sure?
>>
> 
> Well, it was a sane-sounding question from someone not using any variant 
> of the name Saklad, so I took my chances.
> 
> As for the wingnut theory that the problem doesn't exist and is a bogus 
> story being floated by global warming alarmists, I have a friend who is 
> a research entomologist; and she'd be surprised to learn that alarmists 
> are coming in the middle of the night and emptying out the hives she's 
> studying. The leading candidate theory right now is that a particular 
> pesticide that has gained widespread use in the last year or so is 
> probably the culprit. Places where it is used are seeing the colony 
> collapse problem. Places where it isn't used are not seeing it. If that 
> turns out to be true, then the solution would seem to be rather simple 
> from a scientific standpoint, even if it's difficult from a bureaucratic 
> standpoint.

If that's the case you won't even need bureaucrats to get involved.  The grr 
market will fix it poste haste.

Farmer, "Mr. Beekeper I need 100 hives for my xyz crop."
Beekeeper, "Mr. Farmer, I need a certificate that your field has never been 
sprayed with akla-1-3-55-nobee-x-f-gg" commonly known as "killbee"

You want to bet how fast it stops being used ...

On May 10, 3:30 pm, Dick Margulis <margul...@comcast.net> wrote:

> As for the wingnut theory that the problem doesn't exist and is a bogus
> story being floated by global warming alarmists, I have a friend who is
> a research entomologist; and she'd be surprised to learn that alarmists
> are coming in the middle of the night and emptying out the hives she's
> studying.

Nobody need clean out anything because there is no great reduction in
bee populations taking place, it's mostly made up nonsense.

The colony collapse disorder being described is not a new phenomenon,
it didn't begin with the introduction pesticides or commercial bee
farming and it hasn't accelerated recently.  US captive bee
populations peaked in 1947 at 5.9 million in 1947 to 2.4 million in
2005, primarily because the percentage of the average American diet
that is made up of insect pollinated foods (mostly vine plants such as
squash and melons) has dropped to about 30% and bees only pollinated
about 80% of that so there was no reason to increase or even maintain
the larger populations.

All of the articles claiming bee populations are collapsing on a wide
scale contain wildly inaccurate information such a warnings of the
crippling effects on food production with lists of crops that don't
even rely on bees for pollination.  They are however crops that are
grown in regions that experienced unusually cold periods this past
winter and were significantly impacted by it OR they're crops that are
being diverted for other than food uses - and well that reality
doesn't server some political agendas.

The fact is that citrus and produce prices are going up this year as a
result of weather conditions that don't jive with global warming
claims about what supposed to be happening so an alternative excuse
for what is going to happen is being prepared.  By fall you will be
paying more for some fruits and vegetables and reading stories about
higher costs for certain produce due to lower crop yields which are
linked to bee populations, written by people hoping the average reader
is ignorant of the fact that the bees play no role what so ever in the
production of these foods.

This summer when the price of corn has increased substantially and
someone tries to tell you it's because of bees killed by pesticide,
remember that corn is NOT pollinated by bees but by wind and that we
were warned that shifting substantial amounts of corn toward the
production of ethanol would have a severe impact on food prices.

Here's a link to a typical alarmist story about the "problem."  Read
it and see how many distortions and out right mistatements you can
pick out, there are a lot.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18442426/

p62c61 wrote:
> On May 10, 3:30 pm, Dick Margulis <margul...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> As for the wingnut theory that the problem doesn't exist and is a bogus
>> story being floated by global warming alarmists, I have a friend who is
>> a research entomologist; and she'd be surprised to learn that alarmists
>> are coming in the middle of the night and emptying out the hives she's
>> studying.
> 
> Nobody need clean out anything because there is no great reduction in
> bee populations taking place, it's mostly made up nonsense.
> 
> The colony collapse disorder being described is not a new phenomenon,
> it didn't begin with the introduction pesticides or commercial bee
> farming and it hasn't accelerated recently.  US captive bee
> populations peaked in 1947 at 5.9 million in 1947 to 2.4 million in
> 2005, primarily because the percentage of the average American diet
> that is made up of insect pollinated foods (mostly vine plants such as
> squash and melons) has dropped to about 30% and bees only pollinated
> about 80% of that so there was no reason to increase or even maintain
> the larger populations.
> 
> All of the articles claiming bee populations are collapsing on a wide
> scale contain wildly inaccurate information such a warnings of the
> crippling effects on food production with lists of crops that don't
> even rely on bees for pollination.  They are however crops that are
> grown in regions that experienced unusually cold periods this past
> winter and were significantly impacted by it OR they're crops that are
> being diverted for other than food uses - and well that reality
> doesn't server some political agendas.
> 
> The fact is that citrus and produce prices are going up this year as a
> result of weather conditions that don't jive with global warming
> claims about what supposed to be happening so an alternative excuse
> for what is going to happen is being prepared.  By fall you will be
> paying more for some fruits and vegetables and reading stories about
> higher costs for certain produce due to lower crop yields which are
> linked to bee populations, written by people hoping the average reader
> is ignorant of the fact that the bees play no role what so ever in the
> production of these foods.
> 
> This summer when the price of corn has increased substantially and
> someone tries to tell you it's because of bees killed by pesticide,
> remember that corn is NOT pollinated by bees but by wind and that we
> were warned that shifting substantial amounts of corn toward the
> production of ethanol would have a severe impact on food prices.
> 
So you are saying that the drop in the number of bees maintained in the
US is connected to the reduction of domestic production of
bee-pollinated crops.  So increases in domestic production, driven by
interest in organic food, the 100-mile diet and concerns about
contamination in imported foods could be expected to increase their
numbers again.
Madelaine

In article <1178811685.557216.129340@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
 Tim Campbell <timcall@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I'm on an organic beekeeping list of about 1,000 people, mostly
> Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including
> commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list.
> The problem with the big commercial guys is that they put pesticides
> in their hives to fumigate for varroa mites, and they feed
> antibiotics to the bees. They also haul the hives by truck all over
> the place to make more money with pollination services, which
> stresses the colonies.

Lots more organic bee keepers than on her list, though.  We belong to an 
organic CSA and they reported the collapse of all their hives.  To say 
that it didn't happen in a small sample and decide to extrapolate it to 
all organic bee keeper unfortunately doesn't hold true.

marcella

jes.t.er@hexduxhmp.org wrote:

> In ne.food Dan Logcher <dlogcher*xspam*@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>>Actually I saw one news show that suggested cell phone usage might be
>>interferring with bee navigation.  I didn't totally buy that since they
>>fly by scent and memory, I believe.
> 
> 
> This was debunked pretty quickly.

Yeah, kind of figured so.. sounded farfetched.

-- 
Dan

On May 11, 10:31 am, Madelaine <m...@sei.cmu.edu> wrote:

> So you are saying that the drop in the number of bees maintained in the
> US is connected to the reduction of domestic production of
> bee-pollinated crops.  So increases in domestic production, driven by
> interest in organic food, the 100-mile diet and concerns about
> contamination in imported foods could be expected to increase their
> numbers again.
> Madelaine

Before addressing the question one misconception that is being driven
by the alarmist reporting should be tackled - Honeybees are not the
only type of bee that pollinate, but they are the only bee currently
experiencing any type of reductions in their numbers.

To your question; the reduction in domestic production of certain
produce was driven primarily by changes in consumer preference over
that period of time and not a shift from domestic production to
imports of the same items.  Pick up a copy of the Settler's Home Cook
Book from around 1909 and look through the recipes.  You'll find lots
of them for squash, pumpkins and other types of fruits and vegetable
some of which you won't recognize the name of, many are not even
available domestically anymore.  You won't see mention of tomatoes,
broccoli or other items more commonly found on the typical American
diet today.  The need for honeybees has decreased because consumption
of products pollinated by only honeybees has decreased.

The MSNBC article I posted a link to does what many like it do and
that is to use the word bee and honeybee interchangeably and
misrepresent the real impact on food supply from the loss of
substantial numbers of honeybees.  For instance it claims...

"Even cattle, which feed on alfalfa, depend on bees. So if the
collapse worsens, we could end up being "stuck with grains and
water,"  When in fact honeybees do a very poor job of pollinating
alfalfa and alfalfa leafcutter bees and alkali bees, neither of which
live in colonies, make honey or are dieing in great numbers are the
preferred bee for pollinating alfalfa.  The article also lists as
being pollinated by honeybees items such as soybeans, which are in
fact self-pollinating and asparagus, broccoli and celery which don't
require any pollination to produce their edible parts only to produce
seeds which can be done commercially without honeybees.  Nuts are
listed as requiring honeybees when in fact many nut trees self
pollinate and only a few types, such as  almonds, rely on bees.

If every honeybee died tomorrow, not to suggest this is desirable, we
would not be reduced to a grain and water diet as claimed, but a
relatively small number of items that you find in a typical US grocery
store, and depend solely on honeybees, would be impacted.