🚀 go-pugleaf

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On 2004-06-30, Mike Donovan <mdonovan@airswitch.net> wrote:

[trolling snipped]

It looks like the Munch troll has morphed yet again.  Please make a note
of it (preferably in your killfile).

- --keith

- -- 
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/cgi-bin/fom

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Joey Jolley wrote under the new nym "Mike Donovan":
> A study shows that air pollution threatens fetal DNA and is out of
> compliance in 119 counties around the nation. Count on New York City,
> all cities in New Jersey, Chicago, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Denver,
> Berkeley, California, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, San Francisco,
> Honolulu, Los Angeles, Santa Monica, CA, and Seattle to go car-free in
> the next five to ten years.

Keep changing your name/address to avoid people's filters and I will
start cancelling all of your posts.

In article <cbvgvp$7kg$2@blue.rahul.net>,
 John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:

> Joey Jolley wrote under the new nym "Mike Donovan":
> > A study shows that air pollution threatens fetal DNA and is out of
> > compliance in 119 counties around the nation. Count on New York City,
> > all cities in New Jersey, Chicago, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Denver,
> > Berkeley, California, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, San Francisco,
> > Honolulu, Los Angeles, Santa Monica, CA, and Seattle to go car-free in
> > the next five to ten years.
> 
> Keep changing your name/address to avoid people's filters and I will
> start cancelling all of your posts.
> 

When is this NG going to go Bozo-free?

As a kid a friend of mine typed up about 1400 tiny stickers that read,
"The Purple Dragon was here" or some such. I helped him post it ALL
over S.F.  Made Herb Caen in a couple of days. Meant nothing.
The below is the same:

>A study shows that air pollution threatens fetal DNA and is out of
>compliance in 119 counties around the nation. Count on New York City,
>all cities in New Jersey, Chicago, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Denver,
>Berkeley, California, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, San Francisco,
>Honolulu, Los Angeles, Santa Monica, CA, and Seattle to go car-free in
>the next five to ten years.

==

Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant 
that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it. -- Thomas Sowell

>Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant 
>that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it. -- Thomas Sowell

And free markets have been such a rip-roaring success that most
ordinary Russians want Communism back.

******Martin Edwards.******     

Come on!  Nobody's going to ride that lousy freeway 
when they can take the Red Car for a nickel.

Eddy Valiant.

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955/       

                                                    

In article <40e45d8d.8296938@news.btinternet.com>,
 BigM554@netscape.net (Martin Edwards) wrote:

> >Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant 
> >that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it. -- Thomas Sowell
> 
> And free markets have been such a rip-roaring success that most
> ordinary Russians want Communism back.
>

Most ordinary Russians want entitlements back.  That they associate 
entitlements and communism says it all.

Martin Edwards wrote:
> And free markets have been such a rip-roaring success that most
> ordinary Russians want Communism back.

Russia does not have free markets.  It has corrupt politicians who steal any
company that belongs to a potential opposition candidate, and courts that
won't enforce the property rights of investors.

Russia is fast becoming a typical '60s banana republic.

>> And free markets have been such a rip-roaring success that most
>> ordinary Russians want Communism back.
>
>Russia does not have free markets.  It has corrupt politicians who steal any
>company that belongs to a potential opposition candidate, and courts that
>won't enforce the property rights of investors.
>
>Russia is fast becoming a typical '60s banana republic.

So that is what communism breeds? Lazy folks that demand entitlements
and banana republics?
wow. The commies tell me it is the capitalists! No wonder growing up
is tough!

------

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. 
It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
-John Adams

In alt.planning.urban Mike Donovan <mdonovan@airswitch.net> wrote:
> A study shows that air pollution threatens fetal DNA and is out of
> compliance in 119 counties around the nation.

Though I suppose many eating places have vehicle exhausts near, in New
Brighton Mall, New Zealand, there are three restaurants with outdoor
tables in a pedestrian mall. Now the Christchurch City Council has voted
to put a slow road through that mall, thereby adding to the number of
restaurants near vehicle exhausts. And how easy it is to be out of 
compliance when sitting near a vehicle exhaust.

 Count on New York City,
> all cities in New Jersey, Chicago, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Denver,
> Berkeley, California, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, San Francisco,
> Honolulu, Los Angeles, Santa Monica, CA, and Seattle to go car-free in
> the next five to ten years.

Or maybe bits of some of them?

Here is a long list of carfree areas, albeit some with quite a bit of 
public transport.


   Linkname: Carfree Cities: Existing Carfree Places
        URL: http://www.carfree.com/carfree_places.html


Do we have to wait till car transport becomes jam prone, and/or fuel gets 
prohibitively expensive before we do something?

> Here is a long list of carfree areas, albeit some with quite a bit of 
> public transport.

Thanks for the good list of places to avoid.

In nz.reg.canterbury.general John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
>> Here is a long list of carfree areas, albeit some with quite a bit of 
>> public transport.

> Thanks for the good list of places to avoid.

So you won't go to Stanford campus till cars are allowed through?
Keeping off Catalina Island, Third Street Promenade, Santa Monica, Isla 
Vista, Columbia, all of California, where your email address is, already.

Put roads and parking areas in all those, then you will increase teh 
amount of time people spend in traffic jams and reduce the quality of 
life. Also when fuel gets expensive the infrastructure to transport 
people will not be there and standards of living will get very low.

Get a start. Enjoy kids playing in the streets rather than being in 
traffic jams and pollution.

John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote in message news:<cc5752$nlu$7@blue.rahul.net>...
> > Here is a long list of carfree areas, albeit some with quite a bit of 
> > public transport.
> 
> Thanks for the good list of places to avoid.

     Brian Sandle just proved me right.

"Brian Sandle" <bsandle@ablatespam.snap.net.nz> wrote in message
news:1088831858.91066@kyle.snap.net.nz...
> In nz.reg.canterbury.general John David Galt
<jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
> >> Here is a long list of carfree areas, albeit some with quite a bit of
> >> public transport.
>
> > Thanks for the good list of places to avoid.
>
> So you won't go to Stanford campus till cars are allowed through?
> Keeping off Catalina Island, Third Street Promenade, Santa Monica, Isla
> Vista, Columbia, all of California, where your email address is, already.
>
> Put roads and parking areas in all those, then you will increase teh
> amount of time people spend in traffic jams and reduce the quality of
> life. Also when fuel gets expensive the infrastructure to transport
> people will not be there and standards of living will get very low.
>
> Get a start. Enjoy kids playing in the streets rather than being in
> traffic jams and pollution.

  I can just imagine this fellow 100 years ago ranting against horses and
pushing for mules.

Brian Sandle wrote:

> So you won't go to Stanford campus till cars are allowed through?
> Keeping off Catalina Island,

Most people get around in golf carts there. There are a few cars on
the island, mostly 4WD for people living in the backcountry.

> Third Street Promenade, Santa Monica,

Open-air shopping mall, in existance for several decades. Not
always car-free, but is currently. Seems to be doing well now,
probably because of the effort to get quality shops to locate there.

That, and keeping the bums from sleeping on benches there....

>  Isla Vista,

I used to go to school at UC Santa Barbara, and this was the
adjoining student "town". Was not, and (to my knowledge--last time
I was there was late 2002) is not "car free", although a few streets
here and there are blocked off (bikes can still get through).


Columbia,

Some little town up in the Gold Country? Don't know much about it.

"Charles Hobbs" <chobbsNOSPAM@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:40E6E14D.8020900@socal.rr.com...
> Brian Sandle wrote:
>
> > So you won't go to Stanford campus till cars are allowed through?
> > Keeping off Catalina Island,
>
> Most people get around in golf carts there. There are a few cars on
> the island, mostly 4WD for people living in the backcountry.
>
  Well, for those of us who live on small islands, then maybe a golf cart
would do.  For the rest of the world, are you wishing for horses?

In nz.reg.canterbury.general George Conklin <nilknoc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> "Charles Hobbs" <chobbsNOSPAM@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:40E6E14D.8020900@socal.rr.com...
>> Brian Sandle wrote:
>>
>> > So you won't go to Stanford campus till cars are allowed through?
>> > Keeping off Catalina Island,
>>
>> Most people get around in golf carts there. There are a few cars on
>> the island, mostly 4WD for people living in the backcountry.
>>
>   Well, for those of us who live on small islands, then maybe a golf cart
> would do.  For the rest of the world, are you wishing for horses?

When you replied to me last year you pointed out how people love their 
cars. They did love their horses, too.

With horses you would still have parking problems, and traffic jams if you 
only had the same number of people per drawn carriage as cars often have.

Do many people carry bikes on public transport or in their cars in your 
area?

Where are we up to with *folding* bicycles that are perhaps

small multi wheeled sprung,

reclining

very rapid unfolding. In that regard how many meters from your car would 
you need to go in order to make it worth unfolding your bike?

What are people prepared to pay for bicycles? I note that mass production 
has reduced costs of many goods. Now perhaps more cost could go to 
extremely light strong construction, as well as those other matters.

Also wet weather gear could be designed for rapid getting into and compact 
volume.

How good is down hill energy storage for electric bikes?

Has anyone investigated or patented electrically damped shock absorbers 
which help to charge your battery if your road has bumps which would 
otherwise lose energy? (Country road?)

Who is looking into safety? I worry about front (flashing) lamps which are
not very visible from the side front of the cycle at intersections. I
suppose bikes are safer if they are always ready to give way to cars.

Brian Sandle (remembering my fixed wheel bike and down hill riding).

In nz.reg.canterbury.general Col: <Col@xtra.con> wrote:
> On 4 Jul 2004 12:51:25 +1200, Brian Sandle <bsandle@ablatespam.snap.net.nz>
> wrote:

>  
>>
>>Brian Sandle (remembering my fixed wheel bike and down hill riding).

> I don't suppose you remember the feet slipping off the pedals whilst pushing
> into a nor wester ?   Painful eh ?
>  :)

I am a bit vague about some of the pain.

I am trying to remeber if I often relied on the pedals to stop me rather
than the brakes. *If* I was not going too fast it was possible to stop and
unmount as the pedal came to the bottom of the travel. But not if going a
bit fast. Then a straight leg on the pedal was not very helpful,
especially downhill.

But now you have got me wondering about sails on bikes in bike cities. 
Living near the coast is not so good when going inland to the city as the 
afternoon sea breeze would often oppose the homeward journey. So roads 
could be designed so the bikes could tack home.

A danger of the norwester here is the tendency to take the journey home a 
bit too fast.

The next step is to have GPS and a computer on the bike, wind stations on 
each cell phone tower connected to computer. You enter your destination 
co-ordinates and you get a menu for

fastest trip

or

most energy saving trip, as the sails help charge the battery, hydrogen or 
whatever it is

Each bike could also be sending wind speed effects to the central 
computer, and between bikes in a group. Sails could be automatically 
raised and lowered or rotated in some readiness for gusts.

Bikes could be designed for rapid coupling side by side as well as end to 
end. It would be electrical too and a gauge would tell you how hard you 
were working in comparison to the others in the group and perhaps debit 
your battery appropriately. Coupling would increase steadiness in wind.

We already have GPS on buses here, but how many Christchurch drivers let 
you take a non-folding bike on the bus? I have seen it once. Wellington 
used to have side compartments on buses which could take bikes.

"Brian Sandle" <bsandle@ablatespam.snap.net.nz> wrote in message
news:1088902285.307312@kyle.snap.net.nz...
> In nz.reg.canterbury.general George Conklin <nilknoc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > "Charles Hobbs" <chobbsNOSPAM@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:40E6E14D.8020900@socal.rr.com...
> >> Brian Sandle wrote:
> >>
> >> > So you won't go to Stanford campus till cars are allowed through?
> >> > Keeping off Catalina Island,
> >>
> >> Most people get around in golf carts there. There are a few cars on
> >> the island, mostly 4WD for people living in the backcountry.
> >>
> >   Well, for those of us who live on small islands, then maybe a golf
cart
> > would do.  For the rest of the world, are you wishing for horses?
>
> When you replied to me last year you pointed out how people love their
> cars. They did love their horses, too.
>

   Great.  Then we can go back to horses.


> With horses you would still have parking problems, and traffic jams if you
> only had the same number of people per drawn carriage as cars often have.
>
> Do many people carry bikes on public transport or in their cars in your
> area?
>

    There are carriers on the front of each bus. About once or twice a year
I see a bicycle on one of the racks.  I am sure the fuel used to haul around
the extra weight adds to the pollution of the diesel engines in the buses.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:22:28 GMT, "George Conklin"
<nilknoc@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"Brian Sandle" <bsandle@ablatespam.snap.net.nz> wrote in message
>news:1088902285.307312@kyle.snap.net.nz...
>> In nz.reg.canterbury.general George Conklin <nilknoc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> When you replied to me last year you pointed out how people love their
>> cars. They did love their horses, too.
>
>   Great.  Then we can go back to horses.
>
>> With horses you would still have parking problems, and traffic jams if you
>> only had the same number of people per drawn carriage as cars often have.
>>
>> Do many people carry bikes on public transport or in their cars in your
>> area?
>
>    There are carriers on the front of each bus. About once or twice a year
>I see a bicycle on one of the racks.  I am sure the fuel used to haul around
>the extra weight adds to the pollution of the diesel engines in the buses.

A suburban bus gets about 7 mpg empty, about 3 mpg in most
circumstances when full (70 passengers incl. standing).  The higher
consumption partly reflects the weight but mostly reflects the more
frequent stopping.  Consumption can be as high as 1 mpg for full short
run frequent stopping shuttle buses.  Empty the bus weighs 8 tons,
full 12 tons so most of the fuel is used moving bus, not payload.
These are round figures for 1970s vintage Mercedes buses but I think
modern buses wouldn't be much different.  A bicycle weighs a lot less
than a person, I think it wouldn't make much difference to the fuel.

More significant I think in this bycycle/horse/car debate is traffic
volume and safety, and for many people how sweaty they are when they
arrive at work and how wet they get on the way.  I own a bicycle but
only use it recreationally on safe cycle tracks in Auckland.  I used
to ride it to work but decided it wasn't worth the risk, in addition
to working further from home than I used to.  I think in the modern
urban context electric trains are the best solution by far, and buses
second.  I rarely use either, they are too infrequent and don't go
where I want to go.  The city fathers are working on this one, helped
by asian immigrants who are happy living in high density housing and
more used to public transport.

John

"John Potter" <shadytree@beach.sea.nz> wrote in message
news:d6vfe0lop61djpt2eq59gm32uac46374j8@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:22:28 GMT, "George Conklin"
> <nilknoc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >"Brian Sandle" <bsandle@ablatespam.snap.net.nz> wrote in message
> >news:1088902285.307312@kyle.snap.net.nz...
> >> In nz.reg.canterbury.general George Conklin <nilknoc@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> >>
> >> When you replied to me last year you pointed out how people love their
> >> cars. They did love their horses, too.
> >
> >   Great.  Then we can go back to horses.
> >
> >> With horses you would still have parking problems, and traffic jams if
you
> >> only had the same number of people per drawn carriage as cars often
have.
> >>
> >> Do many people carry bikes on public transport or in their cars in your
> >> area?
> >
> >    There are carriers on the front of each bus. About once or twice a
year
> >I see a bicycle on one of the racks.  I am sure the fuel used to haul
around
> >the extra weight adds to the pollution of the diesel engines in the
buses.
>
> A suburban bus gets about 7 mpg empty, about 3 mpg in most
> circumstances when full (70 passengers incl. standing).  The higher
> consumption partly reflects the weight but mostly reflects the more
> frequent stopping.  Consumption can be as high as 1 mpg for full short
> run frequent stopping shuttle buses.  Empty the bus weighs 8 tons,
> full 12 tons so most of the fuel is used moving bus, not payload.
> These are round figures for 1970s vintage Mercedes buses but I think
> modern buses wouldn't be much different.  A bicycle weighs a lot less
> than a person, I think it wouldn't make much difference to the fuel.
>
> More significant I think in this bycycle/horse/car debate is traffic
> volume and safety, and for many people how sweaty they are when they
> arrive at work and how wet they get on the way.  I own a bicycle but
> only use it recreationally on safe cycle tracks in Auckland.  I used
> to ride it to work but decided it wasn't worth the risk, in addition
> to working further from home than I used to.  I think in the modern
> urban context electric trains are the best solution by far, and buses
> second.  I rarely use either, they are too infrequent and don't go
> where I want to go.  The city fathers are working on this one, helped
> by asian immigrants who are happy living in high density housing and
> more used to public transport.
>
> John

  A big issue in NC is the fact that electricity is generated by coal in TN,
and the pollution then drifts east over the state.  The Smoky Mountains,
which were hazy due to tree pollution, are now even more smoky due to
additional pollution from power plants.  Please do not think that
electricity is pollution free.  But riding a bicycle in an urban setting is
dangerous too, as you point out.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:22:28 GMT, "George Conklin"
<nilknoc@earthlink.net> wrote:

>    There are carriers on the front of each bus. About once or twice a year
>I see a bicycle on one of the racks.  I am sure the fuel used to haul around
>the extra weight adds to the pollution of the diesel engines in the buses.

Here in Houston, perhaps one bus in 20 has a bike rack.  If the bus is
operating during off-peak hours and there's adequate room, *sometimes*
a driver may let a bike aboard, but usually that's not the case.
Thus, bikes and busses in Houston seldom link up.  There was some hope
that the new MetroRail would accomodate bikes better, but the recently
announced rules prohibit bikes aboard during peak hours and limit
bikes aboard to two per car during off-peak, with operator discretion
to decline even those.
 
Mass transit and bikes still operate at arm's length in most of Texas.
-- 
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Surrealism is a pectinated ranzel.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 16:10:10 GMT, Werehatrack
<rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:

>Here in Houston, perhaps one bus in 20 has a bike rack.  If the bus is
>operating during off-peak hours and there's adequate room, *sometimes*
>a driver may let a bike aboard, but usually that's not the case.

I meant to say "If the bus has no rack, as is usually the case, and is
operating during off-peak hours..."
 
I have yet to see a bus with two bikes on its front rack, and have
seen one bike on such a rack exactly twice.
-- 
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Surrealism is a pectinated ranzel.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 17:16:18 GMT, Werehatrack
<rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 16:10:10 GMT, Werehatrack
><rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>
>>Here in Houston, perhaps one bus in 20 has a bike rack.  If the bus is
>>operating during off-peak hours and there's adequate room, *sometimes*
>>a driver may let a bike aboard, but usually that's not the case.
>
>I meant to say "If the bus has no rack, as is usually the case, and is
>operating during off-peak hours..."
> 
>I have yet to see a bus with two bikes on its front rack, and have
>seen one bike on such a rack exactly twice.


This is New Zealand. Houston's problems have nothing to do with us.
--
Tarla
****
Dammit, Jeb, I'm as Amish as the next guy, but if we 
don't take out that sub, there won't be a Pennsylvania
to go home TO."

-my son,Eric

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:45:48 +1200, Tarla <tarlaREMOVE@xtra.co.nz> wrote:


>
> This is New Zealand. Houston's problems have nothing to do with us.

Look at the crossposting list and note that nz is in the minority in this  
thread. If you want a NZ-only thread, narrow the followups :-)
-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

"Brian Sandle" <bsandle@ablatespam.snap.net.nz> wrote in message
news:1088915988.522322@kyle.snap.net.nz...
> In nz.reg.canterbury.general Col: <Col@xtra.con> wrote:
> > On 4 Jul 2004 12:51:25 +1200, Brian Sandle
<bsandle@ablatespam.snap.net.nz>
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >>
> >>Brian Sandle (remembering my fixed wheel bike and down hill riding).
>
> > I don't suppose you remember the feet slipping off the pedals whilst
pushing
> > into a nor wester ?   Painful eh ?
> >  :)
>
> I am a bit vague about some of the pain.
>
> I am trying to remeber if I often relied on the pedals to stop me rather
> than the brakes. *If* I was not going too fast it was possible to stop and
> unmount as the pedal came to the bottom of the travel. But not if going a
> bit fast. Then a straight leg on the pedal was not very helpful,
> especially downhill.
>
> But now you have got me wondering about sails on bikes in bike cities.
> Living near the coast is not so good when going inland to the city as the
> afternoon sea breeze would often oppose the homeward journey. So roads
> could be designed so the bikes could tack home.
>
> A danger of the norwester here is the tendency to take the journey home a
> bit too fast.
>
> The next step is to have GPS and a computer on the bike, wind stations on
> each cell phone tower connected to computer. You enter your destination
> co-ordinates and you get a menu for
>
> fastest trip
>
> or
>
> most energy saving trip, as the sails help charge the battery, hydrogen or
> whatever it is
>
> Each bike could also be sending wind speed effects to the central
> computer, and between bikes in a group. Sails could be automatically
> raised and lowered or rotated in some readiness for gusts.
>
> Bikes could be designed for rapid coupling side by side as well as end to
> end. It would be electrical too and a gauge would tell you how hard you
> were working in comparison to the others in the group and perhaps debit
> your battery appropriately. Coupling would increase steadiness in wind.
>
> We already have GPS on buses here, but how many Christchurch drivers let
> you take a non-folding bike on the bus? I have seen it once. Wellington
> used to have side compartments on buses which could take bikes.

The only man on the newsgroup that can change a pushbike into a car without
an engine....

"George Conklin" <nilknoc@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<8ESFc.191$sD4.154@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> "Brian Sandle" <bsandle@ablatespam.snap.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:1088902285.307312@kyle.snap.net.nz...
> > In nz.reg.canterbury.general George Conklin <nilknoc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > "Charles Hobbs" <chobbsNOSPAM@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:40E6E14D.8020900@socal.rr.com...
> > >> Brian Sandle wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > So you won't go to Stanford campus till cars are allowed through?
> > >> > Keeping off Catalina Island,
> > >>
> > >> Most people get around in golf carts there. There are a few cars on
> > >> the island, mostly 4WD for people living in the backcountry.
> > >>
> > >   Well, for those of us who live on small islands, then maybe a golf
>  cart
> > > would do.  For the rest of the world, are you wishing for horses?
> >
> > When you replied to me last year you pointed out how people love their
> > cars. They did love their horses, too.
> >
> 
>    Great.  Then we can go back to horses.

Ride your horses on your own properties or on trails specifically set
aside for that, the roads are for cars etc.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 15:29:22 GMT, "George Conklin"
<nilknoc@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"John Potter" <shadytree@beach.sea.nz> wrote in message
>news:d6vfe0lop61djpt2eq59gm32uac46374j8@4ax.com...
>>
>> More significant I think in this bycycle/horse/car debate is traffic
>> volume and safety, and for many people how sweaty they are when they
>> arrive at work and how wet they get on the way.  I own a bicycle but
>> only use it recreationally on safe cycle tracks in Auckland.  I used
>> to ride it to work but decided it wasn't worth the risk, in addition
>> to working further from home than I used to.  I think in the modern
>> urban context electric trains are the best solution by far, and buses
>> second.  I rarely use either, they are too infrequent and don't go
>> where I want to go.  The city fathers are working on this one, helped
>> by asian immigrants who are happy living in high density housing and
>> more used to public transport.
>>
>> John
>
>  A big issue in NC is the fact that electricity is generated by coal in TN,
>and the pollution then drifts east over the state.  The Smoky Mountains,
>which were hazy due to tree pollution, are now even more smoky due to
>additional pollution from power plants.  Please do not think that
>electricity is pollution free.  But riding a bicycle in an urban setting is
>dangerous too, as you point out.

That does put it in a different light, most generation here is hydro.
I think though that any solution must take into account what people
will likely use.  We have combined bus/cycle lanes here in Auckland
which are less than ideal but it's difficult to know what else could
be done in busy urban areas.  There is very little use of the lanes by
cyclists but I think the system would quickly become unworkable if
there was.  There are no bicycle racks on buses in Auckland.  We did
trial bicycle lockers at one Auckland bus depot for a while, the
lockers are still there but I don't think they were ever used.  

There is one innovation here that I really like.  It's called the
walking bus.  It's for school children, parents organise a roster to
'drive' the bus.  They walk a fixed route with known intermediate
times, children join as the bus goes past their gate.  This solves the
stranger danger problem and both parents and children get exercise.
It also reduces the car congestion problem now common around schools
at start and finish times.  I don't know whether this is original to
New Zealand or whether we've copied someone else but it works well.

John

Denver, San Francisco, Berkley, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Honolulu, and
Seattle are all in compliance with the new standards.  Los Angeles/Santa
Monica is in partial compliance.  Also, the Atlantic City area of New Jersey
is in compliance.  In fact, all of Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado,
Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts,
Mississippi, Minnesota, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North
Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Vermont,
Washington and Wyoming are all in compliance.  Only one rural county in
Montana, Lincoln County, which is mostly in the Kootenai National Forest, is
out of compliance in that state.

I've never seen one of your posts before, but you are starting to sound like
Matt Drudge or Fox News:  Never let facts get in the way of a good story.

Tom Smith

"Mike Donovan" <mdonovan@airswitch.net> wrote in message
news:b73445f7.0406301211.4b91a2b6@posting.google.com...
> A study shows that air pollution threatens fetal DNA and is out of
> compliance in 119 counties around the nation. Count on New York City,
> all cities in New Jersey, Chicago, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Denver,
> Berkeley, California, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, San Francisco,
> Honolulu, Los Angeles, Santa Monica, CA, and Seattle to go car-free in
> the next five to ten years.