🚀 go-pugleaf

Ralph wrote:
> I'd like to convert CO V&H coords to Lat/Long.  I found a V&H map
> online, but it's a low-res gif so it is not useful for precise
> conversion.  I've found references to lots of commercial software that
> will do it, but I've never seen a formula to convert it.
> 
> Even if I could find the lat/long of the 4 corners of the V&H map I
> could interpolate the rest.  Any pointers?
> 
> -Ralph
> 
> p.s. Happy Canada Day!
> 


Is this the gif you encountered?
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/coordsys/gif/vandh.gif

Does this help?
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PC_PROD/pc_prod.shtml#UTMS

-- 
TeGGeR�

"Dave Null Sr." wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:11:43 GMT, nobody@uunet.ca (Ralph) wrote in
> news:3f01dbc8.156431357@news2.istop.com:
> 
> > I'd like to convert CO V&H coords to Lat/Long.  I found a V&H map
> > online, but it's a low-res gif so it is not useful for precise
> > conversion.  I've found references to lots of commercial software that
> > will do it, but I've never seen a formula to convert it.
> 
> What does V&H stand for?

I'm guessing V&H stand for vertical and horizontal.

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:11:43 GMT, nobody@uunet.ca (Ralph) wrote in 
news:3f01dbc8.156431357@news2.istop.com:

> I'd like to convert CO V&H coords to Lat/Long.  I found a V&H map
> online, but it's a low-res gif so it is not useful for precise
> conversion.  I've found references to lots of commercial software that
> will do it, but I've never seen a formula to convert it.

What does V&H stand for? I've been around co-ordinate systems
for almost 20 years and that one doesn't ring a bell.

But to answer the question. Many images have very little usefulness
as 'maps' as they have too many distortions. If it is a fairly
faithful reproduction of a proper map, then you have a chance.

By CO I assume you mean Central Office. Shirley you can simply
locate them and use another map to determine a more accurate
pair of co-ordinates?

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:38:26 -0400, Tegger
<teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:

>Ralph wrote:
>> I'd like to convert CO V&H coords to Lat/Long.  I found a V&H map
>> online, but it's a low-res gif so it is not useful for precise
>> conversion.  I've found references to lots of commercial software that
>> will do it, but I've never seen a formula to convert it.
>> 
>> Even if I could find the lat/long of the 4 corners of the V&H map I
>> could interpolate the rest.  Any pointers?
[...]
>
>Is this the gif you encountered?
>http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/coordsys/gif/vandh.gif

Close, but the one I found was in B&W.

>Does this help?
>http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PC_PROD/pc_prod.shtml#UTMS

Hmmm... maybe.  I'll check it out if I can get it to download.

-Ralph

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 19:52:33 GMT, nobody@uunet.ca (Ralph) wrote:

>On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:38:26 -0400, Tegger
><teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:
>>Does this help?
>>http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PC_PROD/pc_prod.shtml#UTMS
>
>Hmmm... maybe.  I'll check it out if I can get it to download.

Program runs, but doesn't take V&H as input.  It takes some other
(seemingly metric) coordinate systems I don't recognize:

DO YOU WANT TO COMPUTE:

1  GEODETIC POSITIONS TO UTM COORDINATES
2  UTM COORDINATES TO GEODETIC POSITIONS
3  PRINT THE OUTPUT FILE ON THE PRINTER
 TYPE NUMBER 2


   WHICH ELLIPSOID DO YOU WANT ANSWER:
   1.  CLARKE 1866
   2.  GRS80/WGS84
   3.  INTERNATIONAL 1910
   4.  WGS72
   5.  OTHER ELLIPSOID

Ralph wrote:
> 
> I'd like to convert CO V&H coords to Lat/Long. 

Can you provide a pointer to what V&H coordinates look like ?  Are they
relative to one point in a city for instance ?

To get latitude/longitute of a point at a certain distance/direction from
another known point, there are mathematical formulas:
http://williams.best.vwh.net/avform.htm

"Dave Null Sr." wrote:
> By CO I assume you mean Central Office. Shirley you can simply
> locate them and use another map to determine a more accurate
> pair of co-ordinates?

Stop calling me Shirley...

Locating them with some of the online maps can be done with fairly impressive
accuracy with regards to the latitude longitude (which you would find tucked
into the url of the zoom/location level being shown).

However, if the all mighty Ralph has a large table of V&H coordinates, then
locating individual ones on an interacctive map would be very time consuming.

From the giv image that was links by another poster, it seems the origin of
V&H would be somewhere over the caribeean. If you could find the exact lat/lon
for that point of origin, then one could calculate lat/lon fairly easily for
any v&H point.

HOWEVER: what is not clear in that gif image is whether it takes the curvature
of earth into consideration. LAT-LON do. The math formulas calculate a portion
of circumference passing through two points. On a continental scale (north
america), this does make quite a difference. On a city scale, perhaps not much
of a difference.

Dave Null Sr. wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:11:43 GMT, nobody@uunet.ca (Ralph) wrote in 
> news:3f01dbc8.156431357@news2.istop.com:
> 
> 
>>I'd like to convert CO V&H coords to Lat/Long.  I found a V&H map
>>online, but it's a low-res gif so it is not useful for precise
>>conversion.  I've found references to lots of commercial software that
>>will do it, but I've never seen a formula to convert it.
> 
> 
> What does V&H stand for? I've been around co-ordinate systems
> for almost 20 years and that one doesn't ring a bell.



I had no idea what this was initially either. It seems that the Vertical 
and Horizontal system was designed to convert physical measurments on a 
curved globe to rectilinear measurements on a flat map. So a 
degrees/minutes/seconds latitude/longitude coordinate would be converted 
to actual distances in meters or feet.
It seems to be pretty complicated math. Two systems are used for V&H: 
NAD-27 and NAD-83. NAD-83 is metric.

V&H is commonly used in telecom, apparently.

Here is one calculator, but it doesn't go in the direction Ralph needs:
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/utm_getut.prl

If anyone else wants to try, this is exactly what I typed into Google:
"vertical and horizontal" coordinates convert to latitude

-- 
TeGGeR�

Ralph wrote:
> Program runs, but doesn't take V&H as input.  It takes some other
> (seemingly metric) coordinate systems I don't recognize:

UTM isn't "metric" per say, but very conveniently maps to metric... It is done
in a set of grids around the earth, defined as alphabetic characters. Inside
each grid, you have a distance from origin of the grid. That distance is what
maps easily to metric.

>    WHICH ELLIPSOID DO YOU WANT ANSWER:
>    1.  CLARKE 1866
>    2.  GRS80/WGS84
>    3.  INTERNATIONAL 1910
>    4.  WGS72
>    5.  OTHER ELLIPSOID

The elipsoid is the mathematical representation of the earth as a
not-so-spherical body. WGS84 is one of the more "standard/common" ones,
although many maps were produced with other ones. For instance, Australia has
recently developped a new one that more precisely represents the earth's
curvature near australia.

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 19:22:29 GMT, Chris <no@no.ca> wrote in
news:3F0330F5.53F4F44@no.ca: 

> "Dave Null Sr." wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:11:43 GMT, nobody@uunet.ca (Ralph) wrote in
>> news:3f01dbc8.156431357@news2.istop.com:
>> 
>> > I'd like to convert CO V&H coords to Lat/Long.  I found a V&H map
>> > online, but it's a low-res gif so it is not useful for precise
>> > conversion.  I've found references to lots of commercial software
>> > that will do it, but I've never seen a formula to convert it.
>> 
>> What does V&H stand for?
> 
> I'm guessing V&H stand for vertical and horizontal.

Hopefully all co-ordinate systems use this magical direction
system. :)

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:27:46 GMT, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>
wrote in news:3F03403D.2909214E@istop.com: 

> "Dave Null Sr." wrote:
>> By CO I assume you mean Central Office. Shirley you can simply
>> locate them and use another map to determine a more accurate
>> pair of co-ordinates?
> 
> Stop calling me Shirley...
> 
> Locating them with some of the online maps can be done with fairly
> impressive accuracy with regards to the latitude longitude (which you
> would find tucked into the url of the zoom/location level being shown).
> 
> However, if the all mighty Ralph has a large table of V&H coordinates,
> then locating individual ones on an interacctive map would be very time
> consuming. 
> 
> From the giv image that was links by another poster, it seems the origin
> of V&H would be somewhere over the caribeean. If you could find the
> exact lat/lon for that point of origin, then one could calculate lat/lon
> fairly easily for any v&H point.
> 
> HOWEVER: what is not clear in that gif image is whether it takes the
> curvature of earth into consideration. LAT-LON do. The math formulas
> calculate a portion of circumference passing through two points. On a
> continental scale (north america), this does make quite a difference. On
> a city scale, perhaps not much of a difference.

lat/long is NOT a projection, which is what all flat maps are.
Projection systems and datums use an approximation to balance
various trade-offs for accuracy in distance, area, or other considerations
such as size of the area being mapped.

Projection systems can drop a cone or a cylinder (...) over the globe
and then unfold them to a flat surface (in virtual terms).
Errors are known and calculated, but there are errors.

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:32:47 GMT, Tegger
<teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote in
news:_hHMa.4755$eF3.568687@news20.bellglobal.com: 

> Dave Null Sr. wrote:
>> On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:11:43 GMT, nobody@uunet.ca (Ralph) wrote in 
>> news:3f01dbc8.156431357@news2.istop.com:
>> 
>>>I'd like to convert CO V&H coords to Lat/Long.  I found a V&H map
>>>online, but it's a low-res gif so it is not useful for precise
>>>conversion.  I've found references to lots of commercial software that
>>>will do it, but I've never seen a formula to convert it.
>> 
>> What does V&H stand for? I've been around co-ordinate systems
>> for almost 20 years and that one doesn't ring a bell.

> I had no idea what this was initially either. It seems that the Vertical
> and Horizontal system was designed to convert physical measurments on a 
> curved globe to rectilinear measurements on a flat map. So a 
> degrees/minutes/seconds latitude/longitude coordinate would be converted
> to actual distances in meters or feet.
> It seems to be pretty complicated math. Two systems are used for V&H: 
> NAD-27 and NAD-83. NAD-83 is metric.

NAD-etc are datums and are not projections.

> V&H is commonly used in telecom, apparently.

Not around here (that I know of). I've worked in Telecom and GIS
here and have never come across anything other than the local
co-ordinate system, which...

> Here is one calculator, but it doesn't go in the direction Ralph needs:
> http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/utm_getut.prl

... around is usually UTM (universal transverse mercator) which is a series
of cylinders placed at uniform places on the globe to form regions. We're
in zone 18 in Ottawa.

> If anyone else wants to try, this is exactly what I typed into Google:
> "vertical and horizontal" coordinates convert to latitude

There are literally dozens of co-ordinate systems in use.
Pick up a GPS receiver and go into setup mode to see the list
they support.
Many states in the U.S. use their own state plane projections for example
rather than the UTM grids. I've done projects with a few of the baby-bells
in the states and had to convert from their state plane systems to lat/long
for use in locating facilities on government map data.

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:01:26 GMT, nobody@uunet.ca (Ralph) wrote in 
news:3f0339d7.246053741@news2.istop.com:

> On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 19:52:33 GMT, nobody@uunet.ca (Ralph) wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:38:26 -0400, Tegger
>><teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:
>>>Does this help?
>>>http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PC_PROD/pc_prod.shtml#UTMS
>>
>>Hmmm... maybe.  I'll check it out if I can get it to download.
> 
> Program runs, but doesn't take V&H as input.  It takes some other
> (seemingly metric) coordinate systems I don't recognize:
> 
> DO YOU WANT TO COMPUTE:
> 
> 1  GEODETIC POSITIONS TO UTM COORDINATES
> 2  UTM COORDINATES TO GEODETIC POSITIONS
> 3  PRINT THE OUTPUT FILE ON THE PRINTER
>  TYPE NUMBER 2
> 
> 
>    WHICH ELLIPSOID DO YOU WANT ANSWER:
>    1.  CLARKE 1866
>    2.  GRS80/WGS84
>    3.  INTERNATIONAL 1910
>    4.  WGS72
>    5.  OTHER ELLIPSOID

UTM (as I outlined in another post) is a grid based on dropping
cylinders at uniform spacings around the globe. This program
converts from a UTM zone to lat/long and requires another
parameter which tries to compensate for the fact that the
globe is not round. GeoCaching uses WGS84 as the datum
(ellipsoid) (IIRC)

On 2 Jul 2003 21:57:05 -0400, "Dave Null Sr." <lrowoy@ShNotmail.com>
wrote:

>There's a java class described at:
>
>http://openmap.bbn.com/doc/api/com/bbn/openmap/util/VHTransform.html
>
>to do conversions just as you request.
>It seems the equations appear at the bottom in the toLatLon methods.

That helps a lot.

Don't quite understand why the java class doesn't have static methods
returning instances of VHTransform instead of static members, but
that's a question for comp.lang.java...

-Ralph

On 2 Jul 2003 18:23:36 -0400, "Dave Null Sr." <lrowoy@ShNotmail.com>
wrote:

>> V&H is commonly used in telecom, apparently.
>
>Not around here (that I know of). I've worked in Telecom and GIS
>here and have never come across anything other than the local
>co-ordinate system, which...

It's used extensively in telecom sales.  When I bought my OC3 from
Toronto to Manhattan last year, the price was based on the mileage
between the two locations.

When buying point-to-point circuits, the NPA/NXX for the two ends is
used to find the V&H.
http://members.dandy.net/%7Eczg/search.html

Then from the V&H you calculate mileage.
V&H miles: sqrt((V1-V2)^2 + (H1-H2)^2)/10)

So if the carrier sells an OC3 for 0.3c/ds0-mile, you get 347 miles
from Toronto-Manhattan * 0.3c/ds0-mile * 2016 ds0/OC3 = ~$2100/mth for
the OC3.

The reason I want lat/long is because a customer that has a GPS will
know their lat/long, and from their phone number I can find out their
CO, and therefore the V&H of the CO.  Then I can find the distance (as
the crow files) from the customer to the CO.

-Ralph

Ralph wrote:
> The reason I want lat/long is because a customer that has a GPS will
> know their lat/long, and from their phone number I can find out their
> CO, and therefore the V&H of the CO.  Then I can find the distance (as
> the crow files) from the customer to the CO.

Do the telcos in canada still use US miles for distances ? or have they
switched to Kilometres or nautical miles ?

On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 16:02:10 -0400, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote:

>Ralph wrote:
>> The reason I want lat/long is because a customer that has a GPS will
>> know their lat/long, and from their phone number I can find out their
>> CO, and therefore the V&H of the CO.  Then I can find the distance (as
>> the crow files) from the customer to the CO.
>
>Do the telcos in canada still use US miles for distances ? or have they
>switched to Kilometres or nautical miles ?

360 still prices their circuits by the DS0-mile, and I've heard Shaw
and Bell do too.

-Ralph

On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 18:47:17 GMT, nobody@uunet.ca (Ralph) wrote in
news:3f047804.327511201@news2.istop.com: 

> The reason I want lat/long is because a customer that has a GPS will
> know their lat/long, and from their phone number I can find out their
> CO, and therefore the V&H of the CO.  Then I can find the distance (as
> the crow files) from the customer to the CO.

Yes, I know this suggestion creates some work... :)

You could create GPS waypoints in lat/long from your CO database and then
drop the need for V&H after that.

Use GPS trackmaker

http://www.gpstm.com/

 to calculate the distances instead.


Co-ordinates in lat/long can be found for Ottawa using the city's
GIS system from addresses.

http://atlas.city.ottawa.on.ca/mapping/atlas/index_webmap.htm

"Dave Null Sr." wrote:
> You could create GPS waypoints in lat/long from your CO database and then
> drop the need for V&H after that.

Wouldn't the telcos now also have a database of lat/lon for their premises ? I
would imagine that some repairman driving on a rural road would be equipped
with a GPS that tells him exactly where the next concentrator or device on a
telephone pole is going to be located.

In article <3F04A24B.64691EB0@istop.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote:

> "Dave Null Sr." wrote:
> > You could create GPS waypoints in lat/long from your CO database and then
> > drop the need for V&H after that.
> 
> Wouldn't the telcos now also have a database of lat/lon for their premises ? I
> would imagine that some repairman driving on a rural road would be equipped
> with a GPS that tells him exactly where the next concentrator or device on a
> telephone pole is going to be located.

I bet they keep it secret, just because they can.

On a related tangent, does anybody know what the ANAC number is for this 
area?  320-2232 used to work in much of Eastern Ontario, up until a year 
or two ago.

-ben

JF Mezei wrote:
> "Dave Null Sr." wrote:
> 
>>You could create GPS waypoints in lat/long from your CO database and then
>>drop the need for V&H after that.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the telcos now also have a database of lat/lon for their premises ? I
> would imagine that some repairman driving on a rural road would be equipped
> with a GPS that tells him exactly where the next concentrator or device on a
> telephone pole is going to be located.


I was stopped while walking on a country road two weeks ago by a 
serviceman who was looking for precisely this. They had given him crude 
go-to-this-road-then-go-to-that-one coordinates, which turned out to be 
wildly inaccurate. Luckily, I knew what a CUE structure looked like and 
was able to direct him to the one nearest there, which was a good 
mile-and-a-half away from where his directions said it was.

Believe me, this guy had nothing even close to a GPS. A Ford pickup, his 
cell phone and telecom gear. That was all.

-- 
TeGGeR�

In article <3f047804.327511201@news2.istop.com>, Ralph wrote:
> When buying point-to-point circuits, the NPA/NXX for the two ends is
> used to find the V&H.
> http://members.dandy.net/%7Eczg/search.html
> 
> Then from the V&H you calculate mileage.
> V&H miles: sqrt((V1-V2)^2 + (H1-H2)^2)/10)
> 
> So if the carrier sells an OC3 for 0.3c/ds0-mile, you get 347 miles
> from Toronto-Manhattan * 0.3c/ds0-mile * 2016 ds0/OC3 = ~$2100/mth for
> the OC3.
> 
> The reason I want lat/long is because a customer that has a GPS will
> know their lat/long, and from their phone number I can find out their
> CO, and therefore the V&H of the CO.  Then I can find the distance (as
> the crow files) from the customer to the CO.

Ralph,

See

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=telecom17.57.10%40
massis.lcs.mit.edu

(URL wrapped)

I haven't tested this algorithm...

Ray