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robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:

>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it
>happen or will the ACLU be successful in obtaining clemency?  I saw a towm
>meeting dedicated to the punishment of Dodd and it seems the vast majority
>of attendees would like sentence carried out.  The Gal from amnisty 
>International appeared to be a bit out of touch with the rest of Seattle's
>mood.



As I was driving home this evening, I heard on the radio that the
State of Washington Supreme Court ruled that hanging is a viable and
non-abusive form of capital punishment.  As I write this response, I
realize that Dodd will be dead within 3 hours, as I don't see any more
legal roadblocks which will stand in the way of his execution at 12:01
AM.

As for me, years ago I thought that legal execution such as this was
justified ("an eye for an eye").  Now, I just truely don't know.  Yes,
Dodd wants to be killed, but according to poles in the state of 
Washington, the majority don't believe in executing Dodd.  I find it
ironic how the State will perform the execution in a manner in which
Dodd himself killed his victims:  by hanging.  I also must reflect
on how difficult it would have been on me if I had to decided whether
or not to execute Dodd.  Having the power to legally kill/exterminate/
end another human life does not necessarily make the legality of the
killing truly binding under law.

If Dodd had killed one of my sons, what would I have done?  Kill him?
I realize that Dodd's death will insure that one less child molester
is free in our society, but it still doesn't bring back the Isely
boy or the Neer boys.  What a puzzle this all is . . . 

allen

allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>I find it
>ironic how the State will perform the execution in a manner in which
>Dodd himself killed his victims:  by hanging.

He had the choice of hanging or lethal injection.  He chose hanging
because he had used that method on one of his victims and apparently
felt it fitting.

I've got no problem with the killing of people proven to be a menace to
others.  Let those who want them to live pay for their lifetime room,
board and guarding.  And when the killers get paroled, or escape, and
kill again, let those people explain their position to the survivors.
-- 
Alan Batie                               \
batie@agora.rain.com                      \       Sometimes they fool you
+1 503 452-0960                          / \      by walking upright...
45 28 59 N / 122 43 20 W / 440' MSL     /   \

In article <C0CGA6.CnH@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:
>
>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it

As noted by one TV reporter, many of those gathered outside the prison
to SUPPORT THE HANGING where CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS and RIGHT TO
LIFERS!

So much for thou shalt not kill and sanctity of life!

Mike

In article <C0CGA6.CnH@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:
>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it
>happen or will the ACLU be successful in obtaining clemency?  I saw a towm
>meeting dedicated to the punishment of Dodd and it seems the vast majority
>of attendees would like sentence carried out.  The Gal from amnisty 
>International appeared to be a bit out of touch with the rest of Seattle's
>mood.
>
>

As you can tell by my posting time, Dodd is already dead. No, our current
implementation of the death penalty is not a deterant and I can't think of
how we could make it such without grievously infringing on the rights of the
accused. And no, Dodd being an exception, the cost of putting someone to
death is more than the cost of keeping them alive for the next 50 years, so
that is not a pro-death-penalty argument either. But one very important thing
has been accomplished by Dodd's execution: no one, from the prison guards he
has said he would kill whether he escapes or not, to the children he has said
he would kill if he does escape, will die at his hands ever again. Also, no
other inmates will be affected by his complete sociopathic attitude.

These are reasons enough for me to feel some relief at his execution.

	...Dave

Robert Sipe (robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com) wrote:
: 
:   So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it
: happen or will the ACLU be successful in obtaining clemency?  

The ACLU wasn't asking for clemency.  They felt that hanging was "cruel
and unusual".  Lethal injection was always an option, no matter what the
court dedided on hanging.

: -- 
: Statement made by Oliver North when asked to comment on Clinton's draft
: record.  "I would rather vote for Jane Fonda than Gov. Clinton!  At least
: she has been to North Vietnam."

North is such a jerk.  It makes at least as much sense as wanting Daniel
Ortega to replace North as at least Ortega had been to Nicaragua.
-- 
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Robert Sipe (robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com) wrote:
:   So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  

Given his deliberate refusal to appeal, I have to consider it
a suicide.

Mark Zenier  markz@ssc.wa.com  

In article <4142@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:
>
>As noted by one TV reporter, many of those gathered outside the prison
>to SUPPORT THE HANGING where CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS and RIGHT TO
>LIFERS!
>
>So much for thou shalt not kill and sanctity of life!
>
>Mike

Normally I just watch these debates and say nothing.  However, Mike is not
representing the Biblical perspective correctly here.  Two points:

  1. A correct translation of Exodus 20:13, which appears in the King James
     (*not* the language in common use today, incidentally!) as "Thou shalt
     not kill" is given in the New American Standard Bible, one of the most
     scholarly (and correct) translations, as "You shall not commit murder."
     The only other modern translation I have here at work, the New
     International Version, says "You shall not murder."  An execution, such
     as occurred this morning, does not fall under this provision.  See next
     point.

  2. If you are going to take things in the context of the Old Testament,
     which is where Exodus is located, capital punishment is the *only*
     punishment given for many crimes.  "You shalt not commit murder" is
     totally consistent with capital punishment in the Old Testament.

The issue gets a bit more clouded in the light of the New Testament.  However,
read Romans 12:17-13:7.  Two bits from there which together would seem to
support the government's right to carry out capital punishment:
  12:19 - "Do not take revenge... but leave room for God's wrath."
  13:4  - "He [authorities] is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring
	   punishment on the wrongdoer."
Please read the entire passage to get the context before responding to what
I've included here.

Another comment...  The "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot
for foot, burn for burn, bruise for bruise" provision (Exodus 21:24,25) was
a *limiting* law.  Feuds which boil up with each side doing progressively 
more violent things to the other side were effectively eliminated by this.
It was *not* a way of justifying major revenge.

David Eby
Tektronix, Inc

In article <C0CGA6.CnH@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:
>
>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it

Barbaric and anachronistic, IMHO

In <1993Jan5.060212.11129@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:

>Dodd wants to be killed, but according to poles in the state of 
>Washington, the majority don't believe in executing Dodd.  

Somehow, though, the electorate decided in favor of restoring the 
death penalty, including hanging, when the Supreme Court stopped 
blocking it.  An interesting forest vs. trees question: how many 
people support the death penalty in the abstract, but would not 
support it in any individual's case regardless of details?  Does
even someone like Dodd produce enough human sympathy to turn
people against execution?

>I find it
>ironic how the State will perform the execution in a manner in which
>Dodd himself killed his victims:  by hanging.  

Actually, from what I've read he strangled them.  Drop-hanging 
kills by breaking the neck, not by strangulation, assuming it's 
done properly.  The slow, gruesome hangings popular in movies are a 
different matter.  If the victim isn't dropped far enough, death is 
by strangulation.  This is what you get in the old Westerns when 
the lynching victim is dropped a few feet from horseback.  I doubt 
any U.S. court would approve this sort of execution.  It is 
undeniably cruel & unusual.  

Back when hanging was much more common, experienced executioners 
compiled tables of how far a person should be dropped based on 
height, weight, and/or build.  I seem to recall reading that 
Washington uses an old military manual for this.  They seem to
have done it right this time, at least, but if they start doing
it a lot, eventual screwups are inevitable.
-- 
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In article <1icp8fINNd2p@shelley.u.washington.edu> monaghan@cac.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan ) writes:
->In article <C0CGA6.CnH@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com
->>(Robert Sipe) writes: >>
->>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it
->
->Barbaric and anachronistic, IMHO


Too bad Dodd didn't put a better fight when captured.  He might have
gotten his neck broken then which would have saved everyone a lot of anguish.

Terry

The propriety of capital punishment is a hotly debated topic, and I
have found my views changing with time.

I hear and understand the argument that if killing is wrong, then all
killing is wrong.  Capital punishment is clearly killing, so by that
argument it is simply state-sanctioned murder.

On the other hand, society generally agrees that the punishment should
fit the crime.  This has led to "an eye for an eye", but as MLK
pointed out that simply makes us all blind.  If you are going to take
the "eye for eye" punishment to the limit, rapists would be raped,
muggers mugged, and persons causing great bodily harm would be
similarly crippled/maimed/whatever.  This is generally not done.

Further clouding the issue is the fact that "life without parole" is
*cheaper* than execution.  Some people might not agree with this, but
this is what I was taught in a criminal law class in college.  You can
do the math for yourself.  If it costs $40K/yr to house inmates, and
about $100K to build a cell, and the "average" inmate in question is
sentenced at age 27, lives to age 75, this comes to (75-27)*40K + 100K
= $2.02M (in a new cell).  This is a lot, but the costs of appeals
easily exceeds this.  Remember, government pays the prosecutors,
defense attorneys, and the judges.  The figure we were taught (in
1975) was about $10M for capital appeals to be exhausted.
Streamlining the appeals process reduces the $10M, but it needs to be
cut by 80% to match the $2M.

In article <1993Jan5.060212.11129@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
[snip]
>If Dodd had killed one of my sons, what would I have done?  Kill him?
>I realize that Dodd's death will insure that one less child molester
>is free in our society, but it still doesn't bring back the Isely
>boy or the Neer boys.  What a puzzle this all is . . . 

It is to me too.  I believe that killing is wrong, I do not strictly
support "an eye for and eye" punishment, execution of the murderer
will not bring back the victims, and I believe that "life w/o parole"
is cheaper.  But I'm still mildly in favor of capital punishment.  It
makes no sense.

Erik

josh@Happy-Man.com (Joshua_Putnam) writes:

>In <1993Jan5.060212.11129@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:

>>I find it
>>ironic how the State will perform the execution in a manner in which
>>Dodd himself killed his victims:  by hanging.  

>Actually, from what I've read he strangled them. 

You're right.

>Back when hanging was much more common, experienced executioners 
>compiled tables of how far a person should be dropped based on 
>height, weight, and/or build.  I seem to recall reading that 
>Washington uses an old military manual for this.  They seem to
>have done it right this time, at least, but if they start doing
>it a lot, eventual screwups are inevitable.

I heard on NPR while driving in this morning that Washington
did have to consult a WWII Army manual on how to properly hang
someone.  According to a newspaper report I read yesterday
(I'm *fairly* certain it was yesterday) in the Oregonian, the
plan is/was to have the noose just behind the left ear.  When
the floor is dropped, the correct operation would immediately
snap a vertebrae and render instantaneous death.

allen

mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:

>In article <C0CGA6.CnH@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:
>>
>>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it

>As noted by one TV reporter, many of those gathered outside the prison
>to SUPPORT THE HANGING where CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS and RIGHT TO
>LIFERS!

>So much for thou shalt not kill and sanctity of life!

I'm not a CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST or a RIGHT TO LIFER.  However, I don't
see that the issues of capital punishment and abortion have anything to 
do with one another.  Abortion, according to the RIGHT TO LIFERS, is 
murder of an innocent victim.  The key word is "innocent".  Capital 
punishment is reserved for the very worst murders, crimes where the 
murderer has shown "special circumstances" deserving his execution.

I don't equate abortion with murder and I'm often outraged at the force
RIGHT TO LIFERS use to keep women from abortion clinics.  On the other 
hand, what conduct should be expected if you believe that your
government tolerates institutional murder of innocent victims?  What if
it finances the murder of innocent victims?

Given that RIGHT TO LIFERS have suffered major political setbacks in
1992, one might worry about an increase in the amount of violence
directed at abortion clinics.  They've tried to shut them down via
political means, now they may turn to other means.  

Personally, I consider the execution of Westley (there's a "t" in there) A. 
Dodd as "recycling".  People who believe in reincarnation can hope that he 
does better next time around.  People who don't won't have to pay for
his incarceration for 50 or 60 years.  For whatever reason, this person
was defective.  By recyling him, we make sure that he doesn't harm other
people.  And we can hope (though I doubt) that 100% of the money that
would have been spent on his incarceration is given to programs to help
parents and kids.

I see no contradiction between saying "life is precious" and "people who
take life deserve to die".  The difference between somebody killing me
for my wallet or because I cut him off on the freeway and the state
killing him for killing me is so obvious that I find it hard to
comprehend how anyone could equate them.  And that's what most people
believe, too.

Polls of the American public have shown for a number of years that they
favor the death penalty and abortion.  I'm supicious of any poll that
shows "most Washingtonians do NOT favor the execution of prisoner X".
Because of the terrible nature of his crimes and his undoubted guilt,
I'm even more supicious of any poll that claims "most Washingtonians did
NOT favor the execution of Westley A. Dodd".

--
jamesd@techbook.COM                   "2516 newsgroups & nothing on ..."  
PDaXs gives free access to news & mail. (503) 220-0636 - 1200/2400, N81  
Full internet (ftp, telnet, irc) access available. Voice: (503) 223-4245

Recent arguments seem to perpetuate the popular misconception that the
Constitution prohibits cruel or unusual punishments.  It does not.  To
be unconstitutional, a punishment must be both cruel *and* unusual.
Cruel but usual punishments are acceptable.  (Likewise unusual but
not-cruel punishments, like those meted out by the Lake Oswego judge
who sentences miscreants to give Christmas gifts to the needy.)

Hanging was commonplace when the Constitution was drafted.  Supreme
Court arguments that capital punishment was unconstitutional seemed to
evolve from the "penumbral" interpretations common in decades past,
when jurists created new law in a touchy-feely fashion.

There have surely been egregious miscarriages of justice involving
capital punishment.  But I sleep more soundly knowing that Wesley Dodd
will kill no more little boys.

  -=- Andrew Klossner  (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com)
                       (uunet!tektronix!frip.WV.TEK!andrew)

erik@tera.com (Erik Hedberg) writes:

>Further clouding the issue is the fact that "life without parole" is
>*cheaper* than execution.  Some people might not agree with this, but
>this is what I was taught in a criminal law class in college.  You can
>do the math for yourself.  If it costs $40K/yr to house inmates, and
>about $100K to build a cell, and the "average" inmate in question is
>sentenced at age 27, lives to age 75, this comes to (75-27)*40K + 100K
>= $2.02M (in a new cell).  This is a lot, but the costs of appeals
>easily exceeds this.  Remember, government pays the prosecutors,
>defense attorneys, and the judges.  The figure we were taught (in
>1975) was about $10M for capital appeals to be exhausted.
>Streamlining the appeals process reduces the $10M, but it needs to be
>cut by 80% to match the $2M.

I've heard this many times before, but I'm not sure I buy it yet (not
that I believe it proves the death penalty to be right or wrong).  These
figures do not take into account inflation or the legal battles that
might be waged while the convict is in prison for 50 years.  Has anybody
thought to calculate and include these costs???
-- 
Steven A. Ward
The Boeing Company
internet: saw8712@bcstec.ca.boeing.com
phone: (206) 662-0239

In <1773@tekgen.bv.tek.com> tkpowell@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Terry Powell) writes:

:In article <1icp8fINNd2p@shelley.u.washington.edu> monaghan@cac.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan ) writes:
:->In article <C0CGA6.CnH@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com
:->>(Robert Sipe) writes: >>
:->>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it
:->
:->Barbaric and anachronistic, IMHO

Isn't killing children pretty barbaric?  I find it ironic that
the criminals who show their complete contempt for the law use it
to their advantage to prevent appropriate punishment.  Of course
the lawyers always get paid (talk about the true bottom feeders).

I was also interested in the news coverage on this.  Channel 5
news had the protests as their ``Top Story'' devoting the entire
section (about half the show) to it.  They didn't present a
single item from anyone except people against the death penalty.
It reminded me of the pre-election coverage where they would give
10 seconds to Bush (generally unflattering), and 10 minutes to
Clinton.

:Too bad Dodd didn't put a better fight when captured.  He might have
:gotten his neck broken then which would have saved everyone a lot of anguish.

But then the arresting officers would have been crucified for
police brutality.

Bill
-- 
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In article <4142@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:
:
:As noted by one TV reporter, many of those gathered outside the prison
:to SUPPORT THE HANGING where CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS and RIGHT TO
:LIFERS!

Someone, not me, said that it is funny that "CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS 
and RIGHT TO LIFERS" only care about what happends *until* birth.
After that, unless you are in thier class, you are on your own.



         Donn Pedro ....................a.k.a. donn@brat.wa.com
	
	       "You talk the talk.  Do you walk the walk?"

		    There are no ordinary moments.

In article <1993Jan05.172356.3655@microsoft.com>,
 davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler) writes...
>But one very important thing
>has been accomplished by Dodd's execution: no one, from the prison guards he
>has said he would kill whether he escapes or not, to the children he has said
>he would kill if he does escape, will die at his hands ever again. . . .
> 
>These are reasons enough for me to feel some relief at his execution.

That may be so, but I think that one opportunity that is missed in the exercise
of capital punishment is to learn how to prevent other Dodds from appearing.

							Dan, ad nauseum

In article <8153@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM>, davide@tekig6.pen.tek.com writes...
>  2. If you are going to take things in the context of the Old Testament,
>     which is where Exodus is located, capital punishment is the *only*
>     punishment given for many crimes.  "You shalt not commit murder" is
>     totally consistent with capital punishment in the Old Testament.

That may be so, but in the Jewish tradition, the procedures for imposition of 
capital punishment had, by the time of the Second Temple, developed such that 
one execution in seventy years would have been considered extensive.

						    	Dan, ad nauseum

In article <6JAN199315114558@oregon.uoregon.edu> dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be) writes:
/That may be so, but I think that one opportunity that is missed in the exercise
/of capital punishment is to learn how to prevent other Dodds from appearing.

There are as many theories on why there are serial killers as there are serial
killers. The one common thread they have is that there is no common thread.
Human beings are a little too complicated to be individually predictable.

There was an attempt to get Dodd's brain donated to science to look for
abnormalities. This bit of silliness reminded me of the Soviet communists'
attempt to prove that a communists' brain was superior to other brains,
and they saved prominent communist's brains to prove it (including Stalin's).
And you thought "They Saved Hitler's Brain" was an absurd movie...

In <1993Jan5.212321.23381@tera.com> erik@tera.com (Erik Hedberg) writes:

....
:Further clouding the issue is the fact that "life without parole" is
:*cheaper* than execution.  Some people might not agree with this, but
:this is what I was taught in a criminal law class in college.  You can
:do the math for yourself.  If it costs $40K/yr to house inmates, and
:about $100K to build a cell, and the "average" inmate in question is
:sentenced at age 27, lives to age 75, this comes to (75-27)*40K + 100K
:= $2.02M (in a new cell).  This is a lot, but the costs of appeals
:easily exceeds this.  Remember, government pays the prosecutors,
:defense attorneys, and the judges.  The figure we were taught (in
:1975) was about $10M for capital appeals to be exhausted.
:Streamlining the appeals process reduces the $10M, but it needs to be
:cut by 80% to match the $2M.

Simple solution -- hang the lawyers!  This will eliminate the
appeals and much of the backlog in the courts.

Bill
-- 
INTERNET:  bill@Celestial.COM   Bill Campbell; Celestial Software
UUCP:   ...!thebes!camco!bill   6641 East Mercer Way
             uunet!camco!bill   Mercer Island, WA 98040; (206) 947-5591
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