🚀 go-pugleaf

:>Now to the other one:
:> 
:>> Elie,
:>> 
:>> You could go live in Chicoutimi. There, all you'll ever hear is French. Even
:>> quite a colorful brand of French at that! You'll never have to bother with
:>> anything else ever again, be it English, German, Russian, Italian, Chinese,
:>> etc!!!
:>
:>Why do you get the impression I'm bothered with English, German,
:>Russian, Italian, Chinese, Spanish (let's not forget our hispanic
:>friends!), and everyone else? Is it because you'd like to paint me as
:>intolerant and xenophobic already? Come, now, we've only started this
:>debate, and already you've got me all figured out! That's not a good
:>sign for a serious discussion. Keep on like that and you'll lose my
:>interest.

Well, well, you keep talking about a French only country! Any reasonable soul
would assume that other languages are kind of a nuisance to you. If they
weren't, you would certainly not make such a fuss over languages!!!

:> 
:>> As you start awakening to the rest of the world though, you'll realize that
:>> all around Chicoutimi, in North America, there are 300 Million people that
:>> speak mostly English. Nobody will force you against your will to speak
:>> anything but French, but if you want to get out of Chicoutimi one day, you'll
:>> have little choice!!! For as long as you're happy staying put in Chicoutimi,
:>> well, there you go: French all the way!!!
:>
:>But, didn't you notice that I can speak, read and write English, and do
:>so quite often? There's a difference between learning and using English,
:>and being assimilated into English. Do you think they'll all start
:>speaking English in China tomorrow?

You should be proud to be able to speak and write in English. It shows, like
most people of Quebec, that your mind is not closed to what's happening in the
world. As you have probably noticed, I speak and write English as well. I'm a
French Quebecois as much as you are my friend. Look at my name: Luc Marcil.
How much more French can that be? I'm married to a Canadian woman of Japanese
origin. 4 generations in Canada. If I could talk Spanish, Italian, Japanese,
German, Mandarin and Russian, I'd be the happiest person in the world.

As to your talk about assimilation to English, this is something which might
have been "feared" 30 to 50 years ago. Not today. This is anachronistic
"alarmism", as you like to accuse others of resorting to whenever their
opinion differs from yours... As I mentioned in my original post, French has
been spoken for 462 years in North America and it's not about to go away
anytime soon, despite histerical "alarms" to the contrary from our "good
friends" of the St-Jean Baptiste Society or mademoiselle Legault!!! Talking
about mademoiselle Legault, I could tell you a few "spicy stories" about her
for having worked in a firm where she also happened to work some years back.
Trouble maker from the outset that one...

As for you comment about China, if you follow world developments just a
little, you'll find out that yes, a lot of Chinese now speak English as the
big American machine wants the pole position in this emerging market. Have you
ever gone to Hong Kong, what used to be a British Colony? You'll find out that
a lot of people speak English out there. English happens to be the written and
spoken language adopted by 2 of the most important economic powers of the
world: Britain and the United States. No matter how much you'd wish it to go
away, it never will. Even in a sovereign Quebec, and this the most ironic, if
it is to be opened for business, and it'd be suicidal not to, it will be
impossible to do away with English, even for St-Lucien!!! 

The point I was attemting to make in my original post is that it's all a
matter of demographics. If you have enough people of a certain culture in a
certain area, inevitably, you'll hear and read the language of that culture.
Any attempts to deny this culture the use of its language is nothing but
oppression. Ask the Catalan people about language and culture opression. Their
language and culture were deemed illegal by law and they were forcefully
persecuted by the Spanish people. What the PQ wants to do to the English
communities in Quebec is nothing but the same: try to prevent them, through
"legislation", from using their language in a legal manner. Again, as I
pointed out in my original post, there are way sufficient number of Anglophone
in Quebec to justify full services in English. The use of their language in
any way they please should not be the object of legislative attempts at
suppression. This flies smack into the face of the concept of FREEDOM upon
which our model of society is based. Let's get our teachers to teach the
written and spoken French language properly to our children in schools instead
of adopting opressive legislation. If our teachers were to devote as much
energy teaching our kids the proper use of the French language as they do
towards political action, the French language would indeed have quite a future
ahead...

You always come back to your 2 official languages in Canada. This was a
contraption based on politics more so than demographics. Where in Canada the
number justifies it, you do get services in French. Other than that, wishing
that there would be full services in French in areas where there isn't a
single soul who speaks it is totally ridiculous. I was travelling in Alberta
last Fall: Calgary, Edmonton, Lethbridge, Jasper, Banff, Lake Louise.
Beautiful country. There happens to be a community of French speaking people
in this province in number large enough to obtain a good degree of services in
French. To my great surprise, when I opened up the TV from my hotel room, what
did I notice: there were some 4 or 5 different TV channels in French!!! I
guess you didn't know that... Probably too consumed by your religion...


:>> Such is reality in North America and the world for that matter.
:>
:>Ah! English, the master tongue. One day you'll have conquered the
:>world...
:>That is such an ethnocentric point of view!

As pointed out above, I'm a "virgin wool quebecois" myself. I was simply
pointing out the obvious. Something that neither St-Lucien nor yourself can do
anything about!!!


:>> You can't
:>> expect, even in your wildest dreams, to get as many services in French in
:>> Toronto as you can get in Quebec. There are simply not enough French speaking
:>> people in Toronto to justify this. Although, there are smaller communities in
:>> the outlying areas of Toronto such as Oakville or Whitby for example, where
:>> you can get fairly decent services in French, including top notch French
:>> schools. Asking for French services in Toronto equivalent to those in Quebec
:>> would be quite preposterous indeed!
:>
:>Yet, you can get a lot of service in English when you go to
:>Quebec...why, imagine that!

:>> As a result of these demographic realities, you cannot turn around and deny
:>> anglophones living in Quebec their right to English services because you can't
:>> get the level of French services that you'd wish to get elsewhere in Canada.
:>
:>But we don't deny anglo-Quebeckers their right to English services!
:>That's the whole point! This entire discussion comes from the fact that
:>the most visible anglo-Quebecois activists say that they are actively
:>persecuted and stripped of their rights. My point was that, as a
:>minority, they are not in any particular bad shape, when you compare
:>their situation with other minorities in North America (or the world,
:>for that matter...)

:>
:>> History, like it or not, has been such that there are a lot of English
:>> speaking people in Montreal and certain other areas of Quebec which amply
:>> justify maintaining services in English. There's no escaping reality!
:>
:>Did I try to deny this? 
:> 

I think my original post already included the answer to that!!! If you just
cared to open up your eyes and read along. There are and have always been a
number of Anglophone people large enough in Quebec to justify full services in
English. Again, like it or not, history has been such that Anglophones have
played a crucial role in the faith of Quebec and cannot be disassociated from
it. This is the very fact that constitutes the biggest annoyance to the dogma
of a "distinct Quebec society". Quebec society is made in large part of
Mohawks, Crees, Hurons, immigrants from Italy, Germany, Ukraine, France,
Britain, Haiti, etc, etc. Fact: large number of Anglophones/Allophones in
Quebec. Rhetoric and biggest fallacy of the PQ dogma: Anglophones/Allophones
should be denied their rights because they have mistreated the French people
of Quebec throughout Quebec's history and that full services in French are not
available everywhere in Canada... 

As for history, if Quebec had been so poorly treated, why are French Canadian
doing so well all over today? Why have there been so many Prime Ministers and
High Officials in Ottawa that were and still are today French Canadians?
Quebec was conquered on the Plaine d'Abrahams, remember? France deserted
Quebec thereafter. Had the British been so intent in eradicating the French
fact from North America, don't you think it would have been quite easy for
them to do so? Don't you think that if such were their "evil" intentions, that
they would have allowed Quebec to retain its own civil law system (the
Napoleonic civil code from France) or that they would have entered into
treaties of all sorts with the French element of North America? They could
have simply crushed the French at any moment had they wished to. 

Like in any other societies in the world, there are always those who preach
extreme measures. As we are very often reminded by the secessionists, there
conceivably might have been some of the British representatives in post in
Quebec that may have preached objectionable policies. But such views, if their
existence can be proven at all, were evidently those of a few extremists. Had
such views been the official policy of the British Empire towards the French
Canadians, rest assured that this debate would not be occurring today. Any
assertion to the contrary is nothing but intellectual dishonesty and historic
revisionism.

:>> You could harp for ever about developments throughout Canadian and Quebec
:>> history which have resulted in today's demographic and socio-economic reality
:>
:>Typical. "Forget the excesses of the past, now we live in the present
:>bla bla bla"
:>Yet the past forges the present.

You seem to subscribe to the secessionist's dogma quite too blindly for your
own good. You should take time out from all this to study your history and
you'll realize, quite embarassingly, that what you blame on English Canadians
you should instead be blaming on our good and beloved Catholic Church!!!
They're the ones who exhorted French Canadians to be farmers, to have lots of
children and to remain largely ignorant. If you have any ounce of intellectual
honesty, you'll agree that the so-called "Revolution Tranquille" occurred
largely as a result of the will of French Canadian to free itself from the
dogma of the Catholic Church. Some zealots here would have this dogma replaced
by the new one preached by the secessionists. I guess that the old saying
whereby some people are meant to be sheeps and follow all their life is true
after all!!! 

The excesses of the past! Yeah! Let's dwell on these so-called "excesses of
the past" to justify committing new excesses of our own! Great logic. You'll
end up in war ridden ghetto, my friend!!! You have a lot of nerves to talk
about "excesses of the past". Like we were persecuted or something. My God! At
least, have the decency to research your own history. You're pathetic to allow
yourself to subscribe to this easy rhetoric. I guess that it's much easier to
refer those that are less inclined to intellectual efforts to some fallacy
blurred by the passage of time than it is to face the facts as they are today:
indeniable. This whole idea that French Canadians have been persecuted in any
way is simply preposterous. It's the rhetoric of the liars, the excuse of the
lazy. 

:>
:>> and, like certain zealots here in Quebec, try to rewrite history and invent
:>> all kinds of "horror stories" about the so-called iniquities towards the
:>> French inhabitants of Canada and their exploitation by the bad descendants of
:>> General Wolf (the big bad wolf!!!).
:>
:>Would you rather follow history as how it's being written by others:
:>i.e. Quebec has always profited from Canada more than it should have,
:>etc., etc. ?

Hey, there's nothing black or white in life. In certain respects, Canada has
been a hell of good deal for Quebec and less so for other provinces. In other
respects, Canada has been less of a good deal for Quebec and better so for
other provinces. As I pointed out in my original post, the bottom line TODAY,
once the adding and substracting is done, Quebec is not too bad off at all
from its participation in the Canadian Federation! You'll certainly agree that
we're as well off if not better off than France, Britain, El Salvador,
Columbia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Italy, etc, etc. As a matter of fact, we're as
well off or even better off than anybody else in the world. What's your beef
my friend? What "Nirvana" do you thing you'll achieve with your
"sovereignty"???


:>
:>You can't deny that, until the second part of this century, there was a
:>certain level of economic inequity between anglophones and francophones,
:>inside Canada and inside Quebec.

Past history. Not true anymore today. And most of these so-called iniquities
that you seem to be so hung up with are the direct result of the teachings of
the Catholic Church! It's quite clear to me that a farmer will not wield the
same economic power as a merchant banker!!! You're repeating the fallacies
propagated by the secessionists. Yes, there was a time when French Canadians
were more inclined to be farmers than merchant bankers. Not because of
systematic opression by English Canadians, but as a direct result of the
teachings of their "favorite priests"!!!


:>
:>> But, the bottom line today is that French
:>> people thrive and succeed handily in Quebec, in Canada and elsewhere in the
:>> world.
:>
:>Which is why we figure it's time to go on our collective way.

There you go right there! You've just shown the world how little you and
others like you really are. That's the crux of the whole debate right here my
friend. Little does it really matter whether or not all of the arguments that
you try to hide behind are really valid as you've just shown that the only
thing that you're after is sovereignty for sovereignty. The rest is all
hypocrit window dressing. 

You see, the problem I have with you and others like you is that you don't
have the GUTS to come out and sell what it is that you want for what it really
is. You're a bunch of racist xenophobes who want to rid a whole geographic
area of "unwanted elements" to have it all for yourselves. You try to sell it
by propagating fallacies and by inciting hatred and suspicion towards others.
You would deny democratic rights to others in the name of God and the
so-called protection of your own democratic rights. You hide behind the
so-called persecution of the French, which you re-invent at every opportunity,
to pray on the insecurities and the natural instincts of your compatriots. 

When given ample reasons to disprove your claims about this so-called
persecution, the cat really comes out of the bag. We're doing well, "Which is
why we figure it's time to go on our collective way". Your own words... We
should take advantage of this good fortune to get out of Canada. No matter
that this good fortune has come in large part as a result of our participation
to the Canadian Federation. No, what you seek is to get Quebec out of Canada,
no matter how good Canada has been for Quebec. You want to rip us out of
Canada and you have the nerves to justify these actions of yours by putting
the blame on Canada. 

There's a saying in French which goes like this: Donner a manger a un cochon
et il viendra chier sur votre perron!!! Loosely translated, it means: feed a
pig and it'll come back to shit at your own door!!!

You try to hide your ploy behind a whole bunch of rhetoric and demagogy
because you all know too well that if you were to ask the people of Quebec
about outright separation, the answer will always be a resounding NO. You had
to wrap this whole thing up with your so-called "offer of partnership to the
rest of Canada" and confuse a whole lot of people to have the resemblance of a
chance to win the vote. At the last referendum, you all knew too well that
asking the only question which should have been asked was sure to end up in
bitter defeat for your camp. Even with all your maskarading and artifices, you
were not able to convince more than 56% of FRANCOPHONES. Had there not been
electoral fraud and had aboriginals of all descents voted, the real vote would
have been no better than 40% - 45% in favor of your camp.


:>>The old cliches propagated by the secessionist religion whereby
:>> Quebecois carry water for their English bosses and occupy lesser positions in
:>> the corporate hierarchy have been nothing but anachronistic BS for quite many
:>> years by now.
:>
:>But see, it's not the reason why I'm a sovereignist. Wether you like it
:>or not, Quebec is a distinct society: it's not just the language, it's a
:>different culture, with a certain outlook on politics, economics and
:>social issues. And Canada is paralyzed by its own nature to change so it
:>would meet Quebec's vision. The fact that the notion of two founding
:>nations is rejected by a majority outside of Quebec tells the truth
:>about how differently we imagine Canada. It would be better for both
:>nations if Quebec went its own way: it's better to be good neighbors
:>than feuding roommates.

You're a secessionist because you're a racist xenophobe. If you weren't,
living in harmony with others would not be such a burden for you to carry.
After careful analysis, all of the classic excuses brought about by
secessionists for their plan easily fall apart. At the end, the only real
excuse is racism, xenophobia. No matter how hard you try to convince me
otherwise my friend, facts are facts. Why should we change our ways to
accomodate yours? Our ways is as good as yours. And it so happens that it's
been in effect for a few hundreds of years. It's a power struggle, my friend.
Nothing less, nothing more. Stop pretending otherwise and try to wrap yourself
in the flag of virtue. What it is that you're up to is what is called a
PUTSCH, a Revolution. If you insist in getting your way, you'll have to
displace us. Believe me, it won't be easy...

As for Canada, if you cared to educate yourself, you'd find out that it is
already one of the most decentralized Federations in the world. And, for me
and many others here in Quebec and outside of Quebec, it's working just fine
thank you. I'd much rather be a Canadian than even an American for that
matter, and certainly much more so than a comrade from the Banana Republic of
Quebec!!! It's not because you and others such as you are claiming that Canada
doesn't work that it makes it so. I just look around the world and I can tell
you that yes, Canada does work. You have to be completely consumed by your own
little world to not see that Canada does indeed work. As for this nonsense of
2 founding nations with special rights and privileges to the founding clans:
in 1996, this is preposterous bullshit. We're all citizens of the earth and we
should all enjoy equal rights, privileges, obligations and responsabilities.
Only when we all accept this very fact and start thinking like this will we
see no further need for war and destruction. 

You secessionists reason like the little boy who can't get his way and warns
the others that he will not play anymore. After pulling this stunt once too
many, this little boy invariably ends up playing by himself in his own
backyard. I think you've been playing with yourself for too long, monsieur
Elie!!!


:>
:>One more thing. Using the fact that Quebecois have thrived (you should
:>add in the past 30 years...)

You then admit that Quebecois today are striving and successful. The rest, as
said above, is nothing but past history, not worth dwelling upon. Especially
since the "persecution mongering" is based on falsehood and outright lies. Or
should we do like the Serbs and Croatians of the world and annihilate each
other to the very last in the name of God and the "PAST"???

:> to justify the argument that Canada works
:>is a bit disturbing. It implies that francophone Quebecois wouldn't have
:>succeeded as much without Canada. Are you suggesting that francophones
:>wouldn't have been able to prosper on their own? The fact that you
:>stress this fact, overshadowing the contributions Quebec has made to
:>Canada, shows how we are still perceived as descendants of those
:>"lumberjack and bringer of water", like my ancestors have been called a
:>couple of times on qc.politique.

You're full of shit, monsieur Elie. I was merely pointing out what is factual.
Quebecois are doing well today, period. Read again if you care. Never did I
write or imply that Quebecois would not have been as sucessful without Canada.
The fact is that Quebecois are doing quite well thank you within Canada. It is
a fact, as much as it's difficult for you and others such as you to admit.
Don't distort what I wrote.


:>>Forcefully instilling hatred in one people against another where
:>> no such hatred really existed in the first place in order to achieve the
:>> dreams of power of a certain few is nothing but total madness.
:>
:>Hatred! My, how strong you go! Dreams of Power? No. Dreams of democracy
:>are what fuel me.

Dreams of Democracy? From a bunch who will stop at nothing to have their way
against the will of a clear majority??? A bunch that will justify suspending
others' rights for the so-called protection of their own??? You have to be
kidding, monsieur Elie!!!

 
:>But I'm not an idiot. 

Boy, from reading you, it's not all that evident!!!

:>I know that separation does not
:>mean an ideal society. But I know how to distinguish between different
:>political battles.

Please monsieur Elie, a simple answer to my question: What is it that your
separation will bring me? A better standard of living, a better economy, more
jobs, a better education, better health care, better harmony with thy
neighbours, after having kicked them out? Will this "state of mind" really
enrich my life experience? I'm afraid not, monsieur Elie. I'm quite happy with
my life experience as it is now. I don't see what a Republic of Quebec could
add to this. 

One thing for sure though monsieur Elie, messieurs Bouchard, Landry and the
whole happy bunch would be very happy campers in such a world because they
wouldn't have to share their influence over the Quebec territory with anybody
else. No politician in 1996 enters politics for you and me, monsieur Elie.
They all do it because they see a big payoff for themselves at the end of the
rainbow. The name of the game in politics is the larger your sphere of
influence, the larger the payoff at the end of the road. Maybe it's time that
you stop gazing at your navel, monsieur Elie, and start asking yourself what's
in this for you, not for Bouchard, Landry and als!!! Bouchard has been wearing
every single possible political hat in his "honourable and distinctive"
career. He even betrayed his staunchest ally, Brian Mulrony. Do you honestly
think that Bouchard is in this for the welfare of the good people of Quebec.
If you do, monsieur Elie, you're really due for a wake up call!!!


:>I'm not talking politics to tell other francophones to hate the english.
:>I know that's how people like you would like to portray me, because you
:>can't find the faults in my arguments. 

What are your arguments other than "persecution mongering", monsieur Elie.
What will separation bring me that I don't already have or that I can't get
within the Canadian Federation???

 
:>But I'm really not interesed in
:>that kind of discussion. My point is that Canada has outlived its
:>usefulness. 

So you say. But again, that doesn't make it so.


:>It's time to redefine it from the bottom up or, since that
:>seems unlikely, go our way as a member of the world's sovereign nations.
:> 
:>> People in Bosnia and the old Yougoslavia keep dwelling on the past: look for
:>> yourself where this kind of hatred can lead... There is no such natural hatred
:>> here in Quebec. It is high time that we put an end to this dangerous rhetoric.
:>
:>But there can be separation without hate! You're the one who keeps
:>bringing it up! You use it as some kind of scarecrow to support your
:>political view - though, when you look at it, it doesn't in support
:>anything in any way. Why don't you put an end to your own dangerous
:>rethoric? Isn't a velvet separation better than a bloody one, or won't
:>you have a peaceful divorce and shoot the first salvo?

Why should there be separation at all. I am still waiting for a valid reason
as to why we should make separation. Surely, you won't expect people to go
ahead with your separation simply because there are a few of you who wishes
it??? 

Scarecrow? That has to be a favourite of your camp! When you have nothing
intelligent to reply with respect to specific questions, you're all too eager
to qualify them as "SCARE TACTICS". According to this religion of yours,
everything that the other side does is "bad" and, of course, your own side can
do no wrong!!! I'm not raising fear, I'm raising a simple question based on
verifiable facts today: why and for what else should Quebecois abandon what
has worked and served them well for hundreds of years? What is it that owning
total jurisdiction over communications and manpower, because this is what it
all boils down to, will bring me in my daily life. Again, I can see what this
would bring to politicians, but what will it bring to ordinary citizens???
What will it cost me to abandon my Canadian heritage and the advantages
related to being a part of the Canadian Federation??? Not a single soul from
your camp has ever dared to address these simple questions. Everytime they are
being asked, the "party line" is to attack and denounce as a fear mongering
activist he who ever dared to ask. 

Your problem is that you have no reply to this question as you have no clue as
to what would happen if your camp would have its way. So all you can do is
resort to a campaign of negativism, fallacies and persecution mongering.
That's all that ever comes out of your camp. You even have the audacity to
claim that it's up to Canada to prove to Quebecois why they should stay in
Canada!!! Excuse me, Jack, but look all around you and this should be proof
enough why Quebecois should stay in Canada. You're the ones who want to change
all this and you're the ones who will have to prove to us why we should go
along with this. Certainly not the other way around. You won't get the cake
and eat it too! 

  
:> 
:>> French immigrants came to North America 462 years ago. My grand-father spoke
:>> French, my father speaks French, I speak French and my daughter does and will
:>> speak French as well.
:>
:>Good for you. Do you live in the province of Quebec?

Of course I do! How about you?

:>
:>> The bottom line today is that the French fact has gained
:>> tremendous strenght in Quebec in the last 30 years.
:>
:>Yes, that's only natural: they're the majority.

Yeah, we're a majority in Quebec and that doesn't give us the right to deny
the minority any of its rights.

:>
:>> French people succeed in
:>> all facets of the North American and World economies. French people of Quebec
:>> are better educated, are better off financially, travel abroad more and more,
:>> participate at all levels of power in the Canadian Federation more than ever
:>> before. All the cliches peddled by the secessionists about the shabby
:>> treatment of French people throughout Canada are just plain BS.
:>
:>The quality of life of all westerners has greatly improved in the second
:>part of the 20th century. This does not mean that a)there was no
:>exploitation before and b)that sovereignty is not a legitimate political
:>option.

Exploitation! Like your "excesses of the past"!!! Plain bullshit dude. And you
know it. Go talk to your local catholic priest about all this if it makes you
feel better!!!

:>
:>Some sovereignists thrive on the notion that Quebec is constantly
:>shafted by Ottawa. Not me:

Geeze, from reading you, this is not at all eveident!

:> I say it's occasionally shafted by Ottawa, 

Geeze, that's a big step in the right direction!


:>as
:>are other provinces, and that it would better function as part of a true
:>Confederation or as an independent country.
:> 
:>> All this has happened in the Canadian Federation which, like any other
:>> political structures in the world, has evolved and adpated itself through
:>> time.
:>
:>Yes, it's become more centralized.

Again, educate yourself. Canada is amongst the least centralized federations
in the world.


:>
:>> We can all see and appreciate the result of the participation of Quebec
:>> in the Canadian Federation. Quebec, like the rest of Canada, is the envy of
:>> most countries of the world and enjoys one of the best standard of living in
:>> the whole world.
:>
:>It also has a national debt no one envies at all, believe me! It has
:>higher unemployment than a good deal of other industrialized countries,
:>and a widening income gap. Governments are cutting down those programs
:>that gave us those high standard of living. Constitutional talks lead to
:>deadlock, and regionalism is at an all-time high...

The problem of the national debt, unemployment, decrease in expenses, and
every other evil things that you cite is a worldwide problem, monsieur Elie.
The US, France, Britain, Germany, Japan, etc, all experience these same
problems to an extent or another. New Zealand had to slash every thing to the
core a decade ago. They went through it and are all doing much better today
for having had the courage to face their problems. It's not isolated to Canada
or Quebec. Again, you're using disinformation to incite Quebecois to believe
that all of the ills that are currently facing them are directly the fault of
Ottawa and the rest of Canada.

As for constitutional deadlock, for as long as Quebec is represented by
secessionists, there can never be any agreement. Nothing will ever be enough!
It takes 2 to tangle, monsieur Elie. It's quite preposterous to be a party to
the screw up and turn around and claim that the process will never work! It's
up to the parties involved to make it work. Not the "hand of God"!


:>
:>Anyway, a good standard of living has nothing to do with with
:>sovereingty.

Maybe not for those who masturbate and ejaculate on political debates, but for
the ordinary Jos out there, everything has to do with his bottom line!!! This
is a preoccupation which of course is rejected outright by your camp because
it is one for which you have no honest answer. What is the struggle of life
after all if it doesn't start with one's financial well being. For you to
pretend otherwise would indeed offer quite a scary perspective for your "new
society"!


:> 
:>> What does the secessionists have to offer to the people of Quebec which will
:>> top what we ALREADY HAVE??? Plenty of bitnersess, hatred, xenophobia and
:>> paranoia, that's for sure.
:>
:>So far we've seen this mostly on the federalist side! Seriously, what do
:>we have to offer the people of Quebec? A smaller coutry you can actually
:>govern, with one common language: french - though I support services and
:>language protection rights for the anglophone minority. We offer them a
:>manageable society, who's not constantly locked in battle with a
:>centralist federal government, nor opposed to other provinces who feel
:>that demands for recognition are a threat to their own influence.

We already have quite a manageable country thank you. If it weren't for
secessionists, the usual political battles witnessed here would be no worse
than those happening in any other civilized  country. But again, it's the "one
common language" thing that comes back. That's the real reason. Don't kid
yourself and don't try to kid me either. Racism and xenophobia. Nothing else.
At least, have the guts of your opinions!


:>
:>Will you argue that the Canadian Federation does not need to change (and
:>I mean CHANGE) so that it can function properly? And do you believe this
:>change can actually come about, seeing how all different regions of
:>Canada pull in different directions?

It will evolve, as it's been doing since it's origins. Splitting the country
or devoiding the Federal Government of any meaningful levers, as being claimed
by secessionists, of course, will never happen, if it's what you mean.
Adapting to the times to address the changing needs of Canadians, that it
will, as it's always done.

:>
:>> But, nothing in terms of concrete benchmarks or
:>> goals to implement. No specific achievements to be pursued other than the
:>> destruction of Canada as it is today. Nothing but negativism!
:>
:>That's your opinion. Of course, you're a little biaised...

Yeah, and let me guess, you're all objective, right!!!


:> 
:>> The real battle lead by the PQ is nothing but a dirty turf war with their
:>> federal counterparts which has reached the zenith of "nastiness". Nothing
:>> else. It's a battle as to whom will have jurisdiction over what. This has
:>> become such an intense battle that people are willing to risk their country,
:>> the well being of millions of citizens over its outcome.
:>
:>> Quebecois people will not become and do not wish to become communists or
:>> radical socialists through sovereignty.
:>
:>Socialism does not exist any more. But that's a different debate. The
:>left must identify what are the battles of tomorrow - for as long as
:>there is injustice, there will be people fighting for progress.
:>Sovereignty by itself will not bring us progress - as I said, that's a
:>different battle - but it seems a better avenue to change a society than
:>staying in Canada as it exists today.

There you go again: "injustice". This is so ingrained in you and the likes of
you that it has become a "credo". You're so full of it that you don't even
realize it!!! Progress! Yeah right! In a society lead by those who force their
way against the wishes of a majority. Talk about progress. A bunch that is
about to "legislate" the biggest and most pernicious assault on people's
privacy in the history of the free world. Don't you know what your PQ
government is up to with its new laws to gather super data banks against the
wishes of its constituents, all in the name of its "wholy war against tax
evasion". What this government is doing is completely out of proportion with
the problem at hand. I thought people like yourself read Le Devoir. Go read
what Michel Venne had to say on May 15, 1996 and on a few other occasions
about the proposed legislations to amend the Quebec Income Tax Act, the
Ministry of Revenue Act, the Access to Information Act, and other related
laws. You want to fight a battle against injustices, for the good of progress:
get your fingers out of your ass and go tell the PQ that what they want to do
is completely outrageous. Of course, you're all so enamored by this "wholy
Jiad" of yours that you don't even know what's going on in the real world, for
God's sake!


:>
:>> Quebecois people are amongst the
:>> biggest consumers in North America and they certainly are amongst those who
:>> live their lives and appreciate their standard of living the most fully! Do
:>> they wish to change this political orientation of theirs in any radical way?
:>> Not at all!
:>
:>You make a big mistake here. Their high standard of living is not a
:>"political orientation". It is an economic reality found in North
:>America, and derives from the economic power of the British Empire and
:>then the United States. You're mixing up to concepts here which have
:>little to do with each other.

Quebecois's standard of living is a strong preference of theirs and, in turn,
it has a very big influence on what political orientation they chose for
themselves. You can trip on the flowers of the carpet as much as you want,
nothing will change that. If you can't show them that they'll be as well off
or better off after your secession, they won't go for it. Mark my words!


:>
:>> What do the secessionists have to offer? A new type of society,
:>> some kind of a radical social-democracy?
:>
:>A radical social-democracy is a contradiction of terms.

Excuse me, mister erudite. Should you show as much dedication in the
development of your so-called reasoning, maybe more of us would understand
what it is that you want!!!

 
:>
:>> No, the people of Quebec want none of
:>> that. They're already fed up with the increasing number of free loaders who
:>> exploit what they consider a system which is already too generous.
:>
:>Of course you KNOW what Quebecois want. You've got a special antenna
:>that feeds you their thought.

Geeze, don't you go out from time to time?


:>
:>In reality, what some Quebecois understand is that there are less and
:>less jobs because investors go and hire people abroad for wages that are
:>way under those that gave us such a "high standard of living". They
:>understand that "globalization" first enriches those who already have
:>money. They understand that democracy is not a corporate ideal, and that
:>the New Right wave (already turning back) offers little more than an
:>increase income gap, fewer jobs and lower standards of living.

Then, what you really want, monsieur Elie, is a socialist system where
everyone lives off the state. Where everyone is equal in misery! It's been
tried before and it invariable failed. Of course, it is your God given right
to wish to repeat such an experiment. But don't come out here giving us all of
your bullshit and claiming that verything will be better after, when in fact,
what you really want is to get rid of the Anglophone/Allophone element of our
society in order to more easily transform it into yet another dead end
socialist republic. At least, if you had the guts of your opinions, we could
have a vote on the real issue here. But you know you wouldn't stand a chance.
So, you'd rather muddle the issues and try to fool your own compatriots. I
wonder who are the real traitors to the cause of the Quebecois...

 
:>
:>But I digress.

No, you're just telling us all what you're really looking for!!!


:>
:>> What is
:>> this all about? Why, all of a sudden, should the people of Quebec jeopardize
:>> all that they already have?
:>
:>Yes, on day 1 of separation EVERYTHING will DISAPPEAR! Do you really
:>believe this? If so, why, if not, aren't ashamed of using PURE SCARE
:>TACTICS to support your argument?

Scare tactics, there you go again. What do you think will happen, reality
wise, monsieur Elie. Quebec's economy relies heavily on its exports to the
rest of Canada and the US. If Quebec were to separate the way you people are
attempting to, you have to admit that the north american free trade agreement
and the free trade agreement between Canada and the US would not be
automatically amended to include Quebec. The other partners have made no bones
in declaring that if it's the case, they will seek new compromises from each
other. This means new rounds of negotiation. Time wise, if you own a business
that exports out of Quebec, a mere delay of a couple of years during which
your products are subject to additinonal duties surely means a quick death.
When you've worked hard and long to build a business, do you want a fucking
politician to screw it all up for you because of a fucking theoretical concept
that he's got up his ass??? Do you understand this, monsieur Elie??? You're
certainly not a businessman, monsieur Elie! Maybe you're on welfare or
employed by some sector artificially kept alive by the intervention of your
favorite government??? Maybe, you have nothing to lose from this whole
bullshit! A little excitment, monsieur Elie, The hell with other people's
situation, right?

 
:>
:>>So that Bouchard and Landry finally succeed in
:>> obtaining control over the field of communications or manpower? Are we going
:>> to put everything on the line for this???
:>
:>Well, if Canada had given those when the time was right, we wouldn't be
:>in the same mess, now, would we?

What mess are you talking about? Look around you and you'll realize that we're
all pretty well off here in Canada. Don't get too taken by your own rhetoric.
You'll say that our politicians would have done a better job than the ones
from Ottawa? First of all, a good number of the ones in Ottawa came from
Quebec. Proportionally, politicians from Quebec account for a hell of a lot
more scandals than those from any other regions of the country! A politician
is a politician will always be a politician.


:> 
:>> As I said before, it's high time to put an end to this secessionist
:>> bullshit...
:>
:>We'll do when you put an end to your own alarmist, narrow-minded and
:>one-sided ramblings...


Wrong again, monsieur Elie. This debate will end when persecution mongering
little twits such as yourself go back to play with themselves in the privacy
of their own quarters instead of doing so in public. We were quite happy
before you and the likes of you started showing up here in Quebec. We will be
very happy once more when you're all gone back to your closet!!!

Best Regards to all!

Luc Marcil
luc@natsumi.com