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Luc Marcil wrote:
> 
> In message <517qsn$j8p@wpg-01.escape.ca> - jbuchy@escape.ca (Opus) writes:
> :>
> :>Elie Charest <turgon@mlink.net> wrote:
> :>
> :>
> :>>Well, all I can say is this. I lived for two years in Toronto, the
> :>>metropolis of this supposedly bilingual country. I never spoke french,
> :>>and I would not have lived in French if I had wanted to. Paradoxically,
> :>>I lived for a year as an anglophone in Montreal (lived with anglophones,
> :>>studied in english, worked in a Westmount boutique). I never had a
> :>>problem, only when I called back home in Quebec (my vocabulary
> :>>seemed...distant).
> :>
> :>>What we have here are two visions: one in the realm of the "official"
> :>>word, where Anglophones cannot put signs in English only and Francos
> :>>outside of Quebec can supposedly live in French. The other is the actual
> :>>real world, where it's a LOT easier to live in english in Montreal than
> :>>it is to live in French in the greater part of Anglophone Canada. This,
> :>>of course, from personal experience - though I know of other who've
> :>>shared similar experience.
> :>
> :>I shall pick up the gauntlet. You have done a fine job of comparing
> :>apples to oranges. The Anglophone/Allophone minority in Quebec is HUGE
> :>comepared to the Francophone minority here in Manitoba which has the
> :>largest Francophone population in NA outside of Quebec. I am sure you
> :>are aware that most of the non-Francophone population in Quebec lives
> :>in Montreal so it should be no surprise that English is such a common
> :>language in that area. I am of Ukranian descent. The Ukranian
> :>population in Manitoba is larger than the French population yet it is
> :>easier to get French services. I guess my culture isn't as good as
> :>yours. There are also several German communities near Winnipeg. It is
> :>difficult to do business in those towns without speaking German. I
> :>have yet to hear them lament the lack of Geman language services.
> :>--
> :>
> :>*Opus*
> :>-----------------------------------------------------------------
> :>___/Television, the drug of the nation      \___
> :>   \Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation/
> :>-----------------------------------------------------------------
> :>
> 
> Elie,
> 
> You could go live in Chicoutimi. There, all you'll ever hear is French. Even
> quite a colorful brand of French at that! You'll never have to bother with
> anything else ever again, be it English, German, Russian, Italian, Chinese,
> etc!!!
> 
> As you start awakening to the rest of the world though, you'll realize that
> all around Chicoutimi, in North America, there are 300 Million people that
> speak mostly English. Nobody will force you against your will to speak
> anything but French, but if you want to get out of Chicoutimi one day, you'll
> have little choice!!! For as long as you're happy staying put in Chicoutimi,
> well, there you go: French all the way!!!
> 
> Such is reality in North America and the world for that matter. You can't
> expect, even in your wildest dreams, to get as many services in French in
> Toronto as you can get in Quebec. There are simply not enough French speaking
> people in Toronto to justify this. Although, there are smaller communities in
> the outlying areas of Toronto such as Oakville or Whitby for example, where
> you can get fairly decent services in French, including top notch French
> schools. Asking for French services in Toronto equivalent to those in Quebec
> would be quite preposterous indeed!
> 
> As a result of these demographic realities, you cannot turn around and deny
> anglophones living in Quebec their right to English services because you can't
> get the level of French services that you'd wish to get elsewhere in Canada.
> History, like it or not, has been such that there are a lot of English
> speaking people in Montreal and certain other areas of Quebec which amply
> justify maintaining services in English. There's no escaping reality!
> 
> You could harp for ever about developments throughout Canadian and Quebec
> history which have resulted in today's demographic and socio-economic reality
> and, like certain zealots here in Quebec, try to rewrite history and invent
> all kinds of "horror stories" about the so-called iniquities towards the
> French inhabitants of Canada and their exploitation by the bad descendants of
> General Wolf (the big bad wolf!!!). But, the bottom line today is that French
> people thrive and succeed handily in Quebec, in Canada and elsewhere in the
> world. The old cliches propagated by the secessionist religion whereby
> Quebecois carry water for their English bosses and occupy lesser positions in
> the corporate hierarchy have been nothing but anachronistic BS for quite many
> years by now. Forcefully instilling hatred in one people against another where
> no such hatred really existed in the first place in order to achieve the
> dreams of power of a certain few is nothing but total madness.
> 
> People in Bosnia and the old Yougoslavia keep dwelling on the past: look for
> yourself where this kind of hatred can lead... There is no such natural hatred
> here in Quebec. It is high time that we put an end to this dangerous rhetoric.
> 
> French immigrants came to North America 462 years ago. My grand-father spoke
> French, my father speaks French, I speak French and my daughter does and will
> speak French as well. The bottom line today is that the French fact has gained
> tremendous strenght in Quebec in the last 30 years. French people succeed in
> all facets of the North American and World economies. French people of Quebec
> are better educated, are better off financially, travel abroad more and more,
> participate at all levels of power in the Canadian Federation more than ever
> before. All the cliches peddled by the secessionists about the shabby
> treatment of French people throughout Canada are just plain BS.
> 
> All this has happened in the Canadian Federation which, like any other
> political structures in the world, has evolved and adpated itself through
> time. We can all see and appreciate the result of the participation of Quebec
> in the Canadian Federation. Quebec, like the rest of Canada, is the envy of
> most countries of the world and enjoys one of the best standard of living in
> the whole world.
> 
> What does the secessionists have to offer to the people of Quebec which will
> top what we ALREADY HAVE??? Plenty of bitnersess, hatred, xenophobia and
> paranoia, that's for sure. But, nothing in terms of concrete benchmarks or
> goals to implement. No specific achievements to be pursued other than the
> destruction of Canada as it is today. Nothing but negativism!
> 
> The real battle lead by the PQ is nothing but a dirty turf war with their
> federal counterparts which has reached the zenith of "nastiness". Nothing
> else. It's a battle as to whom will have jurisdiction over what. This has
> become such an intense battle that people are willing to risk their country,
> the well being of millions of citizens over its outcome.
> 
> Quebecois people will not become and do not wish to become communists or
> radical socialists through sovereignty. Quebecois people are amongst the
> biggest consumers in North America and they certainly are amongst those who
> live their lives and appreciate their standard of living the most fully! Do
> they wish to change this political orientation of theirs in any radical way?
> Not at all! What do the secessionists have to offer? A new type of society,
> some kind of a radical social-democracy? No, the people of Quebec want none of
> that. They're already fed up with the increasing number of free loaders who
> exploit what they consider a system which is already too generous. What is
> this all about? Why, all of a sudden, should the people of Quebec jeopardize
> all that they already have? So that Bouchard and Landry finally succeed in
> obtaining control over the field of communications or manpower? Are we going
> to put everything on the line for this???
> 
> As I said before, it's high time to put an end to this secessionist
> bullshit...
> 
> Luc Marcil
> luc@natsumi.com

Tu parles fran�ais alors j'utiliserai cette langue.  La f�d�ration 
canadienne a �volu�e � travers le temps, c'est vrai.  Cette �volution 
s'est souvent faite sous la pression de la minorit� francophone vivant au 
Qu�bec.  Il existe de nombreux exemples o� la f�d�ration s'est adapt�e 
pour mater les v�l�it�s autonomistes de certains groupes canadiens 
fran�ais qui semblaient recueillir un certain appui dans la population.  
Cependant la f�d�ration cancadienne n'�volue gu�re depuis les trentes 
derni�res ann�es.  Il y a bien eu le rapatriement de la constitution.  
Aujourd'hui des changements constitutionnelles dans la f�d�ration 
canadienne doivent recueillir l'assentiment des dix provinces.  Ainsi 
l'Ontario qui est la province la plus populeuse et surtout le centre 
�conomique canadien doit avoir l'appui de l'Ile de Prince Edouard.  
Bravo!  Comme �volution il s'agit d'un grand pas vers l'inertie la plus 
totale.  

Il est vrai que que le Canada est le pays o� nous b�n�ficions de la plus 
grande qualit� de vie.  C'est sans doute pour cela aussi que cette 
admirable f�d�ration maintient depuis plus de dix un taux de chomage qui 
d�passent ais�ment les 10% lorsqu'on comptabilise les assist�s sociaux 
aptes au travail. 

Avec le probl�me de d�ficit cancadien, explique-moi pourquoi la 
f�d�ration canadienne �volutive maintient une structure comme le 
gouverneur g�n�ral et ses lieutenants gouverneur.  Cette structure 
co�terait aux alentours de $ 40 millions par ann�es.  Cela fait 
exactement 16 000 emplois � $ 25 000 par ann�e.  On pourrait aussi s'en 
servir pour r�duire le d�ficit.  

Personnellement je crois que le gouvernement f�d�ral entretient 
l'ambiguit� qu�b�coise car elle lui sert de couverture pour masquer ses 
propres d�fauts de structure.  Diviser pour r�gner, c'est bien connu.  La 
souverainet� du Qu�bec n'est sans doute pas la panac�e � tous nos maux au 
Qu�bec.  Mais elle permettra aux Qu�b�cois de tout origine d'avoir plus 
de contr�le sur leur gouvernement, de sortir enfin de se bourbier o� il y 
a trop de perdants.  Je ne suis ni communiste, ni socialiste et en ce 
sens je me heurte souvent aux visions trop gauchisante du Parti 
Qu�b�cois.  Mais ce parti nous offre une solution � l'inertie canadienne.
Apr�s l'accession � la souverainet�, aura-t-on toujours le Parti 
Qu�b�cois au pouvoir, rien n'est moins sur.

Comme tu peux le constater le probl�me canadien et qu�b�cois est souvent 
une question de perception.  La r�alit� est comme une m�daille, elle 
comporte deux c�t�s oppos�s qui se compl�tent pour former un tout.  Ainsi 
il est �trange selon moi d'insulter les gens selon leurs opinions au 
sujet de la souverainet� de Qu�bec et de penser que la v�rit� tient dans 
la f�d�ration canadienne.  Il est temps selon moi de cesser les insultes 
et de commencer � r�fl�chir pour nous sortir de ce bourbier.  Si la 
souverainet� du Qu�bec n'est pas une solution valable, soit mais proposez 
autre chose que le statu quo.  Enfin j'esp�re que ceci t'apportera un peu 
de mati�re � r�fl�chir et qui sait peut-�tre pourra-tu trouver une 
nouvelle avenue ?

Line Pelletier

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Path: news1.sympatico.ca!worldlinx.com!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!hookup!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!sunqbc.risq.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!chinook.Generation.NET!usenet
From: luc@natsumi.com (Luc Marcil)
Newsgroups: qc.general,mtl.general,can.general,can.english,can.francais,misc.invest.canada,can.politics,niagara.general,tor.general,wpg.general,can.atlantic.general,ott.general,bc.general,soc.culture.quebec
Subject: Re: The Quebec Letter: Galganov
Date: 12 Sep 1996 23:12:47 GMT
Organization: Generation.NET
Lines: 139
Message-ID: <51a5df$2fh@chinook.Generation.NET>
References: <322C2046.6072@odyssee.net> <50i67g$qkr@nntp.igs.net> <50n2t8$pdr@wpg-01.escape.ca> <511beg$8cg@ns.RezoNet.NET> <512hcm$8om@myth.vianet.on.ca> <32374FE1.734E@mlink.net><322C2046.6072@odyssee.net> <50i67g$qkr@nntp.igs.net> <50n2t8$pdr@wpg-01.escape.ca> <511beg$8cg@ns.RezoNet.NET> <512hcm$8om@myth.vianet.on.ca> <32374FE1.734E@mlink.net> <517qsn$j8p@wpg-01.escape.ca>
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In message <517qsn$j8p@wpg-01.escape.ca> - jbuchy@escape.ca (Opus) writes:
:>
:>Elie Charest <turgon@mlink.net> wrote:
:>
:>
:>>Well, all I can say is this. I lived for two years in Toronto, the
:>>metropolis of this supposedly bilingual country. I never spoke french,
:>>and I would not have lived in French if I had wanted to. Paradoxically,
:>>I lived for a year as an anglophone in Montreal (lived with anglophones,
:>>studied in english, worked in a Westmount boutique). I never had a
:>>problem, only when I called back home in Quebec (my vocabulary
:>>seemed...distant).
:>
:>>What we have here are two visions: one in the realm of the "official"
:>>word, where Anglophones cannot put signs in English only and Francos
:>>outside of Quebec can supposedly live in French. The other is the actual
:>>real world, where it's a LOT easier to live in english in Montreal than
:>>it is to live in French in the greater part of Anglophone Canada. This,
:>>of course, from personal experience - though I know of other who've
:>>shared similar experience.
:>
:>I shall pick up the gauntlet. You have done a fine job of comparing
:>apples to oranges. The Anglophone/Allophone minority in Quebec is HUGE
:>comepared to the Francophone minority here in Manitoba which has the
:>largest Francophone population in NA outside of Quebec. I am sure you
:>are aware that most of the non-Francophone population in Quebec lives
:>in Montreal so it should be no surprise that English is such a common
:>language in that area. I am of Ukranian descent. The Ukranian
:>population in Manitoba is larger than the French population yet it is
:>easier to get French services. I guess my culture isn't as good as
:>yours. There are also several German communities near Winnipeg. It is
:>difficult to do business in those towns without speaking German. I
:>have yet to hear them lament the lack of Geman language services.
:>--
:>
:>*Opus*    
:>-----------------------------------------------------------------   
:>___/Television, the drug of the nation      \___
:>   \Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation/
:>-----------------------------------------------------------------
:>

Elie,

You could go live in Chicoutimi. There, all you'll ever hear is French. Even
quite a colorful brand of French at that! You'll never have to bother with
anything else ever again, be it English, German, Russian, Italian, Chinese,
etc!!! 

As you start awakening to the rest of the world though, you'll realize that
all around Chicoutimi, in North America, there are 300 Million people that
speak mostly English. Nobody will force you against your will to speak
anything but French, but if you want to get out of Chicoutimi one day, you'll
have little choice!!! For as long as you're happy staying put in Chicoutimi,
well, there you go: French all the way!!!

Such is reality in North America and the world for that matter. You can't
expect, even in your wildest dreams, to get as many services in French in
Toronto as you can get in Quebec. There are simply not enough French speaking
people in Toronto to justify this. Although, there are smaller communities in
the outlying areas of Toronto such as Oakville or Whitby for example, where
you can get fairly decent services in French, including top notch French
schools. Asking for French services in Toronto equivalent to those in Quebec
would be quite preposterous indeed! 

As a result of these demographic realities, you cannot turn around and deny
anglophones living in Quebec their right to English services because you can't
get the level of French services that you'd wish to get elsewhere in Canada.
History, like it or not, has been such that there are a lot of English
speaking people in Montreal and certain other areas of Quebec which amply
justify maintaining services in English. There's no escaping reality!

You could harp for ever about developments throughout Canadian and Quebec
history which have resulted in today's demographic and socio-economic reality
and, like certain zealots here in Quebec, try to rewrite history and invent
all kinds of "horror stories" about the so-called iniquities towards the
French inhabitants of Canada and their exploitation by the bad descendants of
General Wolf (the big bad wolf!!!). But, the bottom line today is that French
people thrive and succeed handily in Quebec, in Canada and elsewhere in the
world. The old cliches propagated by the secessionist religion whereby
Quebecois carry water for their English bosses and occupy lesser positions in
the corporate hierarchy have been nothing but anachronistic BS for quite many
years by now. Forcefully instilling hatred in one people against another where
no such hatred really existed in the first place in order to achieve the
dreams of power of a certain few is nothing but total madness. 

People in Bosnia and the old Yougoslavia keep dwelling on the past: look for
yourself where this kind of hatred can lead... There is no such natural hatred
here in Quebec. It is high time that we put an end to this dangerous rhetoric.

French immigrants came to North America 462 years ago. My grand-father spoke
French, my father speaks French, I speak French and my daughter does and will
speak French as well. The bottom line today is that the French fact has gained
tremendous strenght in Quebec in the last 30 years. French people succeed in
all facets of the North American and World economies. French people of Quebec
are better educated, are better off financially, travel abroad more and more,
participate at all levels of power in the Canadian Federation more than ever
before. All the cliches peddled by the secessionists about the shabby
treatment of French people throughout Canada are just plain BS. 

All this has happened in the Canadian Federation which, like any other
political structures in the world, has evolved and adpated itself through
time. We can all see and appreciate the result of the participation of Quebec
in the Canadian Federation. Quebec, like the rest of Canada, is the envy of
most countries of the world and enjoys one of the best standard of living in
the whole world. 

What does the secessionists have to offer to the people of Quebec which will
top what we ALREADY HAVE??? Plenty of bitnersess, hatred, xenophobia and
paranoia, that's for sure. But, nothing in terms of concrete benchmarks or
goals to implement. No specific achievements to be pursued other than the
destruction of Canada as it is today. Nothing but negativism! 

The real battle lead by the PQ is nothing but a dirty turf war with their
federal counterparts which has reached the zenith of "nastiness". Nothing
else. It's a battle as to whom will have jurisdiction over what. This has
become such an intense battle that people are willing to risk their country,
the well being of millions of citizens over its outcome. 

Quebecois people will not become and do not wish to become communists or
radical socialists through sovereignty. Quebecois people are amongst the
biggest consumers in North America and they certainly are amongst those who
live their lives and appreciate their standard of living the most fully! Do
they wish to change this political orientation of theirs in any radical way?
Not at all! What do the secessionists have to offer? A new type of society,
some kind of a radical social-democracy? No, the people of Quebec want none of
that. They're already fed up with the increasing number of free loaders who
exploit what they consider a system which is already too generous. What is
this all about? Why, all of a sudden, should the people of Quebec jeopardize
all that they already have? So that Bouchard and Landry finally succeed in
obtaining control over the field of communications or manpower? Are we going
to put everything on the line for this???

As I said before, it's high time to put an end to this secessionist
bullshit...     

Luc Marcil
luc@natsumi.com


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