🚀 go-pugleaf

On 9 Oct 1997, John Paulus wrote:

> Tracy Hornschuch (browntr@engr.orst.edu) wrote:
> 
> : On 7 Oct 1997, Karl Denninger wrote:
> 
[snipped]
> : Most churches teach women their *roles* in society.  These roles are are
> : to stay at home and raise the kids.  To take care of their husband.  Heck,
> : it is stated in the vowes when they are married.
> 
> Is that correct? Even with traditional vows (if remember correctly), BOTH
> parties to to obey each other, and there is no gender-specific vow,
> especially in terms the wife as a homemaker.

No, there isn't any part of the traditional Christian vow that states that
the husband is to obey their wives.  But in fact, it is in the wife's vow
to obey her husband.  Unless this has changed within the last three years.

> : So there are many people, both men and women, who do not feel that this is
> : correct...  Is can and has caused problems in the history of humankind.
> 
> : Let's take a look at some things that are happening in society today.  How
> : about divorse.  So one of these PKs end up in divorse court....  They find
> : thenselves facing a woman who they thought they married, but she's
> : changed.  Instead of making him dinner she now wants the house, the kids,
> : child-support, and because she stayed at home throughout the marriage...
> : she wants allomony.  Hum... this has happened to a friend of mine.  We
> : almost got married, but didn't 'cause I wouldn't stay at home...
> 
> But nowadays, isn't this usually resolved (to a degree) by pre-marital
> counseling? i was just talking about this with my roommates....our parents
> lived in an era of "no fault" divorce. The effect of that is, we're all wary
> of relationships, and actually won't commit till we have "the issues"
> resolved. 

Still there are many people walking into relationships and marriages
without counseling.  And having *the issues resolved* doesn't necessarily
mean that they are willing to seek counseling.

Personally I don't think pre-marital counseling is the answer.  I feel
that when a couple applies for a marriage certificate, that part of the
agreement on that certificate is they have to wait for at least six months
before they can get married.  This would not allow people to just get
married over-night, but instead cause them to think about it before they
actually do it.

I know when I got married, after picking up that certificate I really
started to think.  If I was forced to wait... I wouldn't have gotton
married.  Then as a result, I wouldn't have had to gotton a divorse.

> : Now where does this leave this man and this woman?  And what about the
> : kids?
> 
> : You can't blaim NOW for men's problems in court when there are wanting a
> : wife to stay at home and raising the kids.  You can't.  In fact you should
> : be thanking NOW for trying to get more women in the work force.
> 
> There's a balance. A trend that's been in the news is how (yeesh, bad
> grammar!) a number of prominent women executives have resigned because they
> want more time with their families.  

Yes I'm aware of this.  Personally speaking I would give up my job if I
could, but the fact is I can't.  I would love to spend time at home taking
my children to school everyday (which I do anyways) and then pick them up.
I would love to get involved at their schools and teach computer classes.
I would love to be programming during my free time at home.

But I can't.

I also know some men who feel the same.  They want to stay at home and
take care of the home and the kids.  I'm all for that.

My point that I was trying to make in that original statement from above
is I read from many men how they are paying their ex-wives huge sums of
money in the form of child-support and/or allomony.  A lot of those sums
are huge.  But alot of them are that big, because their wives stayed home
and now it has come back to haunt them.

I have a friend who I almost married 10 years ago.  Since I didn't marry
him, he married his ex-girl friend before me.  They had a child before
they got married, and before I met him.  One reason him and I didn't get
married was that he wanted me to stay home or at least stay a cashier for
life, 'cause he would have a problem if I ever made more than he.  So the
woman he did marry stayed home.  She did some babysitting at home on the
side and he worked selling homes.  Their marriage fell apart.  I even
called and talked to her trying to keep them together.  She took him for
everything she could.  And he is paying for it dearly.  Also, he is very
much a Christian.  I would have converted for him, and we would have been
married in his Christian faith.

That is what I mean by it comes back to haunt them.  Now he wants a wife
who will work, and doesn't mind if she is making more than he.  I still
won't marry him... we never had agreed on how to raise children.

[snipped]
> Men have guilt (i.e. are responsible) for what they have done. However,
> there is nothing we can really do to erase that. God sent Jesus, not only to
> prove He understands us, and not only to teach how to live, but to give us
> the opportunity to give. His death on the cross is the one thing that can
> "pay" for our guilt. With anyone else, there is still the question of "You
> did some good things, but still, you did..."
> 
> Accepting what Jesus did, and His authority, is what can heal us and heal
> our society.

Just please don't impose it on the people who don't want it.  I don't feel
that everyone should and will become Christian.  This isn't the answer.
The answer should and will be acceptance.  By accepting someone for who
they are unconditionally.

I accept the Promise Keepers.  I did from the beginning.  But many of them
probably couldn't accept me.  I'm a single mother of three boys, and I
don't take them or myself to church.

> : If the PKs were less religious if not none at all, then I would support
> : them more.  If not totally.  But I cannot support such an organization
> : that doesn't support human rights as a whole.
> 
> The best standard for judging the men of Promise Keepers (and what they
> stand for) is comparing them to Jesus (especially as presented in the 4
> Gospels).  i believe He treated everyone within human rights standards.
> If they don't match up to Jesus, or don't at least try to, when you gently
> point it out--then you should absolutely have a problem with that.

Jesus would have never had said that *someone must drive the bus*.  If
anything, he would have stepped aside and allowed a woman to drive it.  If
he would have been married, I bet you he would have been the type of
husband that would have allowed his wife to drive the bus, and gotton a
kick out of watching her independence.  From what I've read in the Bible
and learned from talking to others, he believed in helping but not to the
point where he was in control.

Am I wrong?

> : I support overall human rights.  Everyone's!  It shouldn't matter if
> : you're Christian or not.  It shouldn't matter if you're woman or man.  It
> : shouldn't matter what color your skin is.
> 
> i'm curious...where do you see human rights violations (that sounds extreme,
> but i think you know what i mean) with Promise Keepers? Patricia Ireland and
> some radical feminists (i have SOME respect for Lorna Brett, President of
> the Chicago NOW chapter, who acknowledged some posiitves and seemed
> reasonable) play on fears based on generalities. 

Who said I did see human rights violations with the PKers?  People are
putting those words into what I've said.

I made that statement about what I believe in so that everyone will know
how I stand.  There are some people who would like to stick me in some
group along with others.  I group that I don't belong in.  I'm not a
feminist and never claimed to be.  I'm not involved with NOW, and never
claimed to be.  I stand in the middle of alot of these ugly debates.  I
can argue both sides of any debate.  And there are a lot of people who
don't like that.

> I'd appreciate specifics, especially based on what you've seen from Promise
> keeper families or "similar" movements/churches.



> 
> Thanks for bringing up some good points and things to think about. The only
> thing i ask is that you truly consider who Jesus is and act accordingly.

Oh and I have.  Most people when they hear on the news of a child who is
hurt don't react.  They say the news has desensitizes them... it doesn't
me.  I have just the opposite reaction.  I will never forget reading in a
news group about a little girl in Chicago that went through a horrible
experince.  She was called Girl-X.  This all happened around jan 21 of
this year.  I had never been so moved to do something.  So I sent NBC
emails trying to get them to do a story.  I sent her a card.  There have
been other cases in the news where I've done the same.  Everytime I hear
about a baby that was left behind, I want to run out and take that child
into my arms and bring them home with me.  I will always have more room in
my heart for more children.

I have taken in complete strangers (teenagers) because they are runaways,
or they have been kicked out by their parents.  I try to help them by
helping them finding a job, then we'll sit around and talk for hours about
themselves and how they feel about their parents and other things.

Everyday I help people.  I've given money when I didn't have money to
give.  I've given away my son's car seat after he turned 5 without
charging the person.  They were very thank-full.  I've given away
clothing, and other things.  That is just who I am.  That is what I
believe in.

If this is like Jesus, I don't know.  I don't preach to people on how they
should be.

I just believe that if I smile at the whole world they will smile back.

Some people say that I have a smile stuck on my face at all times, and
they call me smiley.  But I do get smiles back.  And my heart crys for
those who can't or will not smile back.

I live by example.  That's all.

Tracy


browntr@engr.orst.edu                   | tracyh@teleport.COM
http://www.engr.orst.edu/~browntr/      | http://www.teleport.com/~tracyh/
I would like to find a man who wants    | Have you told your children
to be married and a father for life.    | you love them today?

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