🚀 go-pugleaf

In <344A8970.4556FC4F@seas.gwu.edu.NOSPAM> Alan Davis
<adavis@seas.gwu.edu.NOSPAM> writes: 
>
>
>
>Carol Ann Hemingway wrote:
>
>> In <3447CF3B.E5E714C9@seas.gwu.edu.NOSPAM> Alan Davis
>> <adavis@seas.gwu.edu.NOSPAM> writes:
>> >Daniel B. Holzman wrote:
>> >> In article <3446E897.70081BCB@seas.gwu.edu.NOSPAM>,
>> >> Alan Davis  <adavis@seas.gwu.edu.NOSPAM> wrote:
>
>
>
>> >> >> No, sorry, PK theory has the man submitting to god and the
wife
>> >> >> submitting to her man.
>
>
>
>> >> >You have bought into Lefty's myth.  PK has no such "theory."
>> >> >How long have you been studying PK?
>> >> >What are your references?
>> >> >I've offered quotes, references, and people
>> >> >to talk to to refute this.
>> >>
>> >> I need look no further than their own writings:
>> >
>> >You need to look further into these writings.  Whatyou have
presented>> includes too>much "....">You present this "leadership" as a
henious>> >aspect of interpersonal relationships, which it>is not.  If
leadership>> is a poor thing, let's start at the>top and get  rid of
the President,> Vice-President,>Speaker of the House, etc.
>>
>>             ---------
>>           Leadership that is only male, precludes female leadership;
>>          how hard is it to understand that?  Last time I looked, it
>>             was still possible to have a female president/vice.
>>             ----------------------------------------
>
>Leadership is gender neutral.  Wise people become leaders,
>>or know when to follow good leadership.

            ---------
            The question then becomes one of whether or not WOMEN
            in the PK mindset can ever become "wise people".
            ---------------
>
>> >Mr. Evans takes on male complacency, and incites
>> >them to *spiritual* leadership.  This is something you
>> >have no concept of, since you used those "........"s
>> >to take out parts you don't understand.
>>
>>             --------------
>>             Leadership is a new code word for male supremacy?
>>             ---------------
>
>You're still making up nonsense.

                --------------
                Are all the leaders in PK male?  That's not
                too difficult, is it?
                ------------
>
>Leadership is gender neutral.  Wise people become leaders,
>>or know when to follow good leadership--regardless of gender.

            -----------
            So how many female group leaders are now installed
            in PK?
            --------

>
>> >> ". . . sit down with your wife and say something like this,
"Honey,> I've> made a terrible mistake. .  . I gave up leading this
family, and>> I> forced you to take my place. Now I must reclaim that
role.".>> > . . I'm not suggesting you ask for your role back, I'm
urging you to> >> take it back . . . there can be no compromise here.
If you're going>> to> lead, you must lead . . . Treat the lady gently
and lovingly. But>> lead!"
>>
>>             ----------
>> >>
>> >>          -- Tony Evans, co-editor of Seven Promises
>> >> of a Promise Keeper in "Spiritual Purity" chapter of
>> >> Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper, p. 79-80.
>> >>
>> >> ". . . I believe that feminists of the more aggressive persuasion
>> are>> frustrated women unable to find the proper male leadership. If
a>> woman>> were receiving the right kind of love and attention and
>> leadership, she>> would not want to be liberated from that."
>> >>
>> >>          -- Tony Evans
>> >
>> >His opinion.
>>
>>             --------
>>             Yes, the opinion of ONE PKer....only one.  :]  That
>>             is what started the wearing of veils in Iran, and the
>>             methods used by Taliban.
>>             ---------
>
>Bunk.  Strawman argument.  Can you think of
>no other argument than to try to link those who
>disagreee with you to criminals?  Have you run out of
>knowledgable things to say?

                ---------
                Those who support the Taliban are NOT criminals; they
                are LEADERS....male leaders who refuse to allow women
                to compete in the workplace or school on an equal level
                with men.  Whatever makes you think they are criminals?
                -----------------------
>
>> >Before you condemn it, read it.
>> >Who are these "more aggressive persuasion" feminists,
>> >note he didn't say *all* feminists.
>>
>>             ----------
>>            Why would he have to?  The idea that rebellious women can
>>            be "cured" by a good **** has been expressed since
>>            the dawn of time.  This is hardly anything NEW.  The
>>            only difference is that the **** is spirtual rather
>>            than physical.
>>             ---------------------
>
>Please tone down your language.

            --------
            No.
>
>There are gentlemen and ladies present.

            --------
            If they are adults, they will have to get used to the
            fact that there are all kinds of words in the world;
            in that regard, the grown-up thing to do would be to
            get on with it.  If you're a child you can avoid all
            sorts of language and simply pretend language you don't
            like doesn't exist...in the same sense that you can 
            pretend PK is about equality.
            ---------------------------
>
>Besides, the conversation was with respect to
>defining who these aggressive feminists are.
>I'm sure not all women are "aggressive feminists."
>
>> >What do you have against love, attention, and leadership?
>> >I do not feel oppressed, myself, when I follow the leadership
>> >of our Boy Scout Troop Scoutmaster.  Nor do I feel
>> >oppressed when I follow my wife's leadership.  Are you for
>> >anarchy?
>>
>>             ----------
>>             Is it the PK stance that you must follow your wife's
>>             spiritual leadership in the self-same way she must
>>            follow yours, or are roles assigned.  (I already know
>              the answer, but I'm not sure you're willing to admit
>>             it).  Equality is not anarchy.
>>             ===================
>
>Stop guessing what I might or might not say.
>
>Your stereotyping will only lessen any good points
>you might have.  I've told you that there is no
>"mandate" for one to follow another.  The only mandate
>is to follow the wisdom of God.  Both men and women have
>been called saints.  Wisdom is gender neutral, though in
>several books of the Bible it is referred to as "she."

            ----------
            I have asked you a direct question.  You have failed
            to answer. 
            -------------
>
>> >> "Don't you understand mister, you are royalty and God has chosen
you> to be>> the priest of your home?"
>> >>
>> >>          -- Tony Evans, co-editor of Seven Promises of a Promise
>> Keeper in
>> >> The Progressive, August 1996.
>> >
>> >A priest is a servant.  What's your problem?
>>
>>             ----------
>>             The priest gets the duty of service and all the RIGHTS
>>             that accompany the title.  Trying to portray it only
>>             as duty, is doing a disservice to those who want the
>>             REST OF THE STORY.
>>
>>             ------------
>
>Or to those who might make it up?
>
>What RIGHTS do priests get?

                ---------
                The right to be the spiritual leader in their homes,
                at the exclusion of women in the same role.  You still
                haven't answered my question.
>
>I suggest, none other than the right
>to choose to follow God.  What other
>rights do you think that they have that
>frighten you?

                -----------
                I need not be frightened about a group of men who
                want the right to lord over women;  that's nothing
                new;  it's as old as the bogeyman.  You still haven't
                answered my question.
>
>> >> "The demise of our community and culture is the fault of
sissified>> men who>> have been overly influenced by women."
>> >>
>> >>          -- Tony Evans, co-editor of Seven Promises
>> >> of a Promise Keeper in The Progressive, August 1996.
>> >
>> >An opinion, it has some truth in it.
>>
>>             ---------
>>             How is it possible to be "overlyinfluenced" by those
>>             who comprise over 1/2 of humanity.  Shouldn't that
>>             huge group have just over 1/2 of the "say" in how
>>             we conduct ourselves.
>>             -----------------
>
>So are you saying that all women are feminists?

            --------
            No.  I'm saying that all women have the right to 
            equal protection.
            -------------
>
>> >What are you afraid of here?

            -------------
         Nothing.  Empty "phallacy" only makes me angry...not scared.
            ---------------
>> >
>> >> There was also the op-ed in the CHicago /Trib/ a few weeks ago. 
It>> was>> written by a female minister who had a parishoner who became
a>> PKer.  He>> stopped coming to Church.  When she asked him about it,
he> told her she>> was no longer his pastor, because the PKers had told
him> that the proper>> order of things is "men lead, women follow."
>>
>>             -------
>>             YUP
>
>I disagree with him.  He has committed the same order
>>of misinterpretation as NOW saying
>that women have the right to make false
>rape allegations.

                ----------
                If that is the case, why aren't you supporting total
                inclusion of women in the process?  You still haven't
                answered my question.
                ============
>
>> >That man made a mistake.Of the many men who went to DC,>you would
not>> have to search very long to find a sinner with an incomplete or
>> >false idea or philosophy.  Do you now>take this one mistaken fellow
>> and apply>it to millions?
>>
>>             ---------
>>             In the same way that a few Muslims make women wear
>>             veils, having nothing to do with the listed precepts
>>             of the religion, PK has their own agenda which includes
>>             the submission of women.  We don't buy what you're
>>             trying to sell, a white-wash of bigotry.
>>
>>                 Lefty
>
>Please stop with the comparisons of those whohold ideas with which you
do>not agree>to criminals.  Your stereotyping lessens>the strength of
any other argument you might>make.

            ----------
            To what court must members of the Taliban report viz a viz
            their criminal culpability?  BTW, you still haven't        
            answered my question.  Perhaps you realize you can't.

                Lefty