🚀 go-pugleaf

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 04:46:54 GMT, "Skip  Gundlach"
<skip.sezremovethispartformailingme@engr.uga.edu> wrote:

>Preference would be a lightly equipped, original, aggressively maintained
>freshwater northern summer one owner boat that I could sail out of the Great
>Lakes into the Atlantic.  Since there are probably only a handful of that
>type in existence, never mind 'available,' the next preferences are:

Sorry to see you've had this setback, Skip. Unfortunately, the
warnings about dealing with lawyers came true, it seems.

R.

Hi, Rhys, and thanks for the note...

"rhys" <rhys@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:usa8409n4ev756vn76d09gup3fo485090n@4ax.com...

> Sorry to see you've had this setback, Skip. Unfortunately, the
> warnings about dealing with lawyers came true, it seems.
>
> R.

I don't know that it's an attorney problem.  I think it's simple greed on
the part of someone who just doesn't understand or have any interest in
boats (the owner-inheritor).  You might find  http://tinyurl.com/2udky
interesting reading.  I had the poor judgment not to walk after the response
to the engine survey based on assurances from the listing broker that he'd
get me more on that, but not until the full survey, so as to not get bogged
down until it mattered. My initial assessment of him - early on in the
negotiations - had been an opportunist more interested in maximizing the
revenue than getting a quick sale.  Each step along the way increased that
assessment.  As it stands now, the boat is a hazard to use; I'm hopeful
someone might encourage a legal-type to make sure he's not at risk to sell
it like it is.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, two steps back, one step forward, beginning another round of
search outside of M46

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were.  Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

I read the survey/judgement whatever it was - it seemed to be a
confusing mixture of stupid stuff -

(Stern Port Lazarette  Loose hardware ... Cost: $2) 

with really important stuff 

( Hydraulic steering leaks Both the manual and autopilot portions of
the hydraulic steering system leak at every connection point, both
here and in the engine room. The hydraulic ram had leaks that ...  the
ram will require rebuilding or replacement.  Cost: $475)

I'm not trying to be rude but ... (I probably will be) ... you seemed
to forget that this is a 24 year old cheap boat that wasn't properly
built to start with or cared for afterwards - what'd you expect for
$120K. 

Morgan's were big cheap boats built for Carib charter trade -you know
that - I know that. I bought a used 52' boat in 1986 that cost me
$140K then - after I'd looked at about 75 boats in Seattle, Vanc, SF,
LA, SD, FL, Anap ... after 18 years and lots of world cruising - I
still own it and still "care" for it - I drive cars - I own my boat.

My point is this - you probably pissed off the owner (an attorney)
with your "zeal" - like he needs to be ground into pulp for every $2.
issue that the surveyor found or didn't find - or you found 6 months
from now. 

"Owners" want to see the boat "transferred" to the "right" people - in
our case the widow took $5K less because the higher offer was from a
local charter co - she didn't want to see her deceased husband's baby
go into charter ...

Watch your psychology ..



On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 18:18:50 GMT, "Skip  Gundlach"
<skip.sezremovethispartformailingme@engr.uga.edu> wrote:

>Hi, Rhys, and thanks for the note...
>
>"rhys" <rhys@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:usa8409n4ev756vn76d09gup3fo485090n@4ax.com...
>
>> Sorry to see you've had this setback, Skip. Unfortunately, the
>> warnings about dealing with lawyers came true, it seems.
>>
>> R.
>
>I don't know that it's an attorney problem.  I think it's simple greed on
>the part of someone who just doesn't understand or have any interest in
>boats (the owner-inheritor).  You might find  http://tinyurl.com/2udky
>interesting reading.  I had the poor judgment not to walk after the response
>to the engine survey based on assurances from the listing broker that he'd
>get me more on that, but not until the full survey, so as to not get bogged
>down until it mattered. My initial assessment of him - early on in the
>negotiations - had been an opportunist more interested in maximizing the
>revenue than getting a quick sale.  Each step along the way increased that
>assessment.  As it stands now, the boat is a hazard to use; I'm hopeful
>someone might encourage a legal-type to make sure he's not at risk to sell
>it like it is.
>
>L8R
>
>Skip and Lydia, two steps back, one step forward, beginning another round of
>search outside of M46

Hi, Bert, and group(s),

"bert" <bert@aolfake.com> wrote in message
news:69va40pkg8n485fp2av4hvo90krbvsnjf4@4ax.com...
> I read the survey/judgement whatever it was - it seemed to be a
> confusing mixture of stupid stuff -
>
> (Stern Port Lazarette  Loose hardware ... Cost: $2)
>
> with really important stuff
>
> ( Hydraulic steering leaks Both the manual and autopilot portions of
> the hydraulic steering system leak at every connection point, both
> here and in the engine room. The hydraulic ram had leaks that ...  the
> ram will require rebuilding or replacement.  Cost: $475)
>
> I'm not trying to be rude but ... (I probably will be) ... you seemed
> to forget that this is a 24 year old cheap boat that wasn't properly
> built to start with or cared for afterwards - what'd you expect for
> $120K.
>
> Morgan's were big cheap boats built for Carib charter trade -you know
> that - I know that. I bought a used 52' boat in 1986 that cost me
> $140K then - after I'd looked at about 75 boats in Seattle, Vanc, SF,
> LA, SD, FL, Anap ... after 18 years and lots of world cruising - I
> still own it and still "care" for it - I drive cars - I own my boat.
>
> My point is this - you probably pissed off the owner (an attorney)
> with your "zeal" - like he needs to be ground into pulp for every $2.
> issue that the surveyor found or didn't find - or you found 6 months
> from now.
>
> "Owners" want to see the boat "transferred" to the "right" people - in
> our case the widow took $5K less because the higher offer was from a
> local charter co - she didn't want to see her deceased husband's baby
> go into charter ...
>
> Watch your psychology ..

Point taken.  However, since there were *no* such detailing efforts before
that point - just a very straightforward "I offer this much" - and there
were already several instances shown of his venality, I opted for a
dispassionate look at everything, softened with multiple instances of doing
everything possible to minimize it, in the hope that such simple detailing
would at least demonstrate that I wasn't pulling a number out of the air.
Since I went from bow to stern and back, there was no way to avoid mixing
the insignificant with the horrific.  Besides, the broker got copies of both
surveys, so the recommendations were plainly separated from the suggestions.

And, I can reasonably be sure that this attorney cares only for the buck.
He's not a boater and has no interest in the boat.  He's not visited it
since he inherited it, other than to take off the fishing and scuba gear
which the broker had given the guy who died (and really pissed off the
broker that he then sold it to someone else instead of either giving it back
to him or leaving it with the boat as it was when he listed it - see the
listing pic of the dive bottles between the deck lockers).  He's saddled the
broker with any care of the boat; it hadn't been so much as cleaned, other
than when we were aboard, below, and he's very tired of scrubbing the deck
and running city water through the watermaker to kill the membranes once a
month, which he thinks is sufficient in lieu of pickling.  We left the boat
in markedly better showing condition due to our efforts during the
survey/trial, so it will at least show better.  However, anyone
knowledgeable will *not* like the look of the engine room, and the surveyor,
should it get that far, will, no doubt, if they do the minimum needed to do
an electrical evaluation, find the same faults.

In any case, we've moved on.  The only way we'd revisit that boat is if the
owner had certified signoffs on the recommendation portion of the survey.

Stay tuned to further developments in the saga....

L8R

Skip,

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were.  Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

There are 19 pre 1984 Morgans at: http://ybw.yachtworld.com/

MW
Los Angeles

By chance did you read this post?  At least as far as the 4th paragraph??
Note the second sentence...

We'll be living aboard, full time, in the Caribbean, so it could be anywhere
between there and the Great Lakes/inland waterway (no trucking/dismasting to
get salty, please!).  If it's on YachtWorld, in the last 6 months, I know
about it already.  On the other hand, if you think yours is totally special
at the price, or some other circumstance that says I should take another
look,  please contact me.


--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were.  Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin
"mike worrall" <mike.e.worrall@abc.com> wrote in message
news:226724bd.0403031929.67f4095c@posting.google.com...
> There are 19 pre 1984 Morgans at: http://ybw.yachtworld.com/
>
> MW
> Los Angeles

quickie update:

We've offered on a boat which was literally across the canal (up quite a
way, though barely in sight) from the failed offer.  Lydia's not seen the
boat, so we leave to see it on Saturday, survey Sunday and Monday, and
anticipated close 23rd...

Much simpler boat, and an owner who is the diametrical opposite of the
prior...  For a quickie review of *that* boat and deal, see below and
http://tinyurl.com/2udky  Please note: that boat is NOT this weekend's trip!

More when we get back...

L8R

Skip and Lydia

-- 
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were.  Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin
"Skip Gundlach" <skip.sezremovethispartformailingme@engr.uga.edu> wrote in
message news:wQ40c.25829$hm4.1798@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> #@W$E%^&(*I()__(#@$%^
>
> The boat we'd thought for sure we'd be provisioning this weekend is still
> 'sale pending' on YachtWorld, but that's just because the broker hasn't
> updated it yet.
>
> Those of you who have followed our adventures know how we got here, so
I'll
> not repeat it.  We found a boat, had an engine survey done because the
> engine room was such a disaster and high hours suggested problems might be
> there.  The engine/generator survey came back from the surveyor, also a
> marine diesel mechanic company (so able to quote repair prices firmly)
with
> (some ranges due to potential digging-further potential) 4+ - 6+ thousand
in
> recommendations, but the engines themselves were sound, even though mature
> in hours.
>
> Owner offered 1500 and I was ready to walk but the listing broker affirmed
> that he would work to achieve, and was confident he could get, more after
a
> full survey, but rather than getting bogged down, when there were known
> issues which would arise in the full survey, to proceed.  We reluctantly
> did.
>
> We used Pete Brown, a consummate professional, who swarmed over and under
> and into the boat, including a detailed rigging survey to the tops of the
> masts.  His survey disclosed pretty much what we already knew, plus some
> minor hull issues, but plus some very distinct safety and security issues.
> His report indicated such.
>
> We did a rigorous and aggressive search for the least expensive way to
> accomplish the resolution of the issues, and after doing that, found that
it
> would cost between 17+ and 24+ thousand.  We were willing to deal with the
> problem resolution (see my post on walking out after a bad survey), but
the
> seller offered 5k.
>
> However, the frosting on the cake is that the lender kicked it out after
> seeing the survey (unless the recommendations were addressed -
> recommendations being different than suggestions, of which there were 5
> pages).  Both our broker, and a later broker on a different boat, say that
> they've never seen a boat rejected for financing based on the survey -
which
> gives you some concept of the severity of the issues of this boat...
>
> The bottom line to this owner is he's an attorney - not a boater - who
> inherited it, and his initial bargaining showed that he was not operating
> from good sense, rather, revenue maximizing (his initial counter, and our
> counter-counter, was less than 4% apart, and he tried to split it).  My
> later assessment of his position based on his engine survey response was
> that he's a penny-pincher, trying to maximize the money realized, rather
> than take his windfall and run.  The response to the full survey just
> confirmed this opinion in spades.
>
> So, we're now into buyers' broker agreements, with the accompanying
search,
> and continuing to look for our Morgan 46, Flying Pig :{))
>
> L8R
>
> Skip and Lydia, frustrated

"Skip Gundlach" <skip.sezremovethispartformailingme@engr.uga.edu> wrote in
message news:2lU0c.29226$hm4.5740@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Preference would be a lightly equipped, original, aggressively maintained
> freshwater northern summer one owner boat that I could sail out of the
Great
> Lakes into the Atlantic.  Since there are probably only a handful of that
> type in existence, never mind 'available,' the next preferences are:
>
> Any configuration is ok, but a deep keel, removable inner staysail ketch
> with the workbench walkthrough would be the favorite.  And, by Morgan 46,
> I'm referring to the 461/462/463 (there was one of them built), not the
post
> 1984 Catalina Morgans.
>
> Extra points for extra heavy battery capacity backed up with wind and
solar,
> with mechanical gear driven from 12V or engine, hardtop and enclosure,
> current reefer/freezer mechanicals with holding plates and/or beefed up
> insulation.  No extra points (but not turned down, either!) for heat, AC,
> generator, bunkbed configuration.
>
> We'll be living aboard, full time, in the Caribbean, so it could be
anywhere
> between there and the Great Lakes/inland waterway (no trucking/dismasting
to
> get salty, please!).  If it's on YachtWorld, in the last 6 months, I know
> about it already.  On the other hand, if you think yours is totally
special
> at the price, or some other circumstance that says I should take another
> look,  please contact me.
>
> Also, if you're part of a community near such sailing waters, please feel
> free to repost this in local discussion groups.
>
> I may not see this in group, so please respond directly to skip at
> (removejunk)earthlink dot net(not.com) (apologies for convolution, but
> spam/virus harvesters are getting smarter, I've found!).  We're ready,
> willing and able buyers with the mechanics in place to move quickly.
>
> L8R
>
> Skip and Lydia

Remember, I say, remember the fate of jilted lovers.
They bounce off too soon, to their later chagrin.
Take it easy.

Brian W

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:33:47 GMT, "Skip  Gundlach"
<skip.sezremovethispartformailingme@engr.uga.edu> wrote:

>quickie update:
>
>We've offered on a boat which was literally across the canal (up quite a
>way, though barely in sight) from the failed offer.  Lydia's not seen the
>boat, so we leave to see it on Saturday, survey Sunday and Monday, and
>anticipated close 23rd...
>
>Much simpler boat, and an owner who is the diametrical opposite of the
>prior...  For a quickie review of *that* boat and deal, see below and
>http://tinyurl.com/2udky  Please note: that boat is NOT this weekend's trip!
>
>More when we get back...
>
>L8R
>
>Skip and Lydia

I had an opportunity to sail on two boats of the same hull in the last
few weeks.  One had a three-point system (two multi-purchase blocks -
about the same hardware as a vang - secured to the opposing ends of the
cabin roof and the end of the boom), and the other a traveler, for the
main.

The surveyor likes the three-point, saying that's all they use on the
serious racers, as it gives a great deal more control to the sail shape.
Indeed, the boat seemed to sail better, even in lighter winds, to me,
with him trimming, than the one with the traveler.  Everyone else,
though, seems to prefer the traveler.

Anyone here who has had one and changed to the other?  If so, why the
change, and what did you think of it?

Any strong opinions formed out of OPB (other people's boats') experience
any of you can share?

(We're considering purchasing a boat which has a minimal - perhaps 3
feet - traveler mounted inside the boom gallows and are pondering either
a full-length cabin-top traveler or three-point system to replace it.
It also has a preventer which, I suppose, could act as a 3-point when
downhauled over the genny traveler rail...)

Thanks.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, inching closer to our purchase

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover."   - Mark Twain


-- 
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were.  Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin