🚀 go-pugleaf

According to Transport Canada, a boat is a boat, take it from there.

Lloyd Sumpter wrote:

> Hi,
>
>    For the Operator's Card requirement, does an electric trolling-motor
> count as a "motor"? The reason I ask is that Near Cove (8ft Walker Bay) is
> often fitted with a Minn Kota 30-lb electric, but never a gas outboard.
> Does my Lady have to have an Operator's Card to run it? ( I have a card,
> but she doesn't) I've looked at the CG website, even the actual
> regulations, but can't find a definition of "motor".
>
> Lloyd Sumpter
> "Far Cove" Catalina 36

BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:

> If you want to get picky, internal or external combustion "motors" are
> correctly called engines, not motors. 

OK, let's get picky. A diesel powered ship is a motorship. 
They have been called that by the entire world of regulators 
and engineers for close to a hundred years.

Rick

BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:

> That would be a motorship powered by a diesel ENGINE. Regulators and
> Engineers have made mistakes before, and they will again.

Bavarian Motor Works makes motorcars.

Yamaha makes nice outboard motors.

Rick

You guys are both right.  You're arguing oranges and tangarines.

-W

<BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com> wrote in message
news:vlrd005i9p1t290liusk3rdm7i3j6e5jut@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:21:04 GMT, Rick <woodtugs@dearthlink.nyet>
> wrote:
>
> >BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:
> >
> >> That would be a motorship powered by a diesel ENGINE. Regulators and
> >> Engineers have made mistakes before, and they will again.
> >
> >Bavarian Motor Works makes motorcars.
> >
>
> A motorcar is not an engine
>
>
> >Yamaha makes nice outboard motors.
> >
>
> An outboard motor is not an engine
>
>
> Both contain engines.
>
>
> The people who work with them are Engineers, not Motorers.
>
> BB

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:14:05 +0000, BinaryBillTheSailo wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:13:43 GMT, Pat Fusk <" pwf"@nb.sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
> 
>>According to Transport Canada, a boat is a boat, take it from there.
>>
>>Lloyd Sumpter wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>    For the Operator's Card requirement, does an electric trolling-motor
>>> count as a "motor"? The reason I ask is that Near Cove (8ft Walker Bay) is
>>> often fitted with a Minn Kota 30-lb electric, but never a gas outboard.
>>> Does my Lady have to have an Operator's Card to run it? ( I have a card,
>>> but she doesn't) I've looked at the CG website, even the actual
>>> regulations, but can't find a definition of "motor".
>>>
>>> Lloyd Sumpter
>>> "Far Cove" Catalina 36
>>
>>
> 
> Motor=Mechanical Propulsion
> 
> If you want to get picky, internal or external combustion "motors" are
> correctly called engines, not motors. 
> 
> BB

Actually, I didn't want to get picky, or know the "definition" of motor
(vs Engine, etc). I need to know what Transport Canada regards a "motor"
because that's the cornerstone of the Operator's Card requirement: that
the boat have a "motor". And as we all know, the LEGAL definition of a
word is not necessarily the "common" definition (eg "consideration").

I'd like to get my Lady to get her Card anyway, so she can legally operate
the Tin Boat, or Far Cove. But she LIKES running Near Cove with the
electric, so she's more likely to get one if it's required for that. She
clearly does NOT need one to paddle Miss Lily.

Lloyd Sumpter - Operator Card #0150026627

She should have one anyway...unless you plan to retire from boating by 2009.
I would bet money that your electric outboard is considered a motor for the
'cards' purpose.
If I could find my phamplet, I'd look it up.

Lloyd Sumpter <lsumpter@dccnet.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.01.15.21.24.02.734871@dccnet.com...
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:14:05 +0000, BinaryBillTheSailo wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:13:43 GMT, Pat Fusk <" pwf"@nb.sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>According to Transport Canada, a boat is a boat, take it from there.
> >>
> >>Lloyd Sumpter wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>>    For the Operator's Card requirement, does an electric
trolling-motor
> >>> count as a "motor"? The reason I ask is that Near Cove (8ft Walker
Bay) is
> >>> often fitted with a Minn Kota 30-lb electric, but never a gas
outboard.
> >>> Does my Lady have to have an Operator's Card to run it? ( I have a
card,
> >>> but she doesn't) I've looked at the CG website, even the actual
> >>> regulations, but can't find a definition of "motor".
> >>>
> >>> Lloyd Sumpter
> >>> "Far Cove" Catalina 36
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Motor=Mechanical Propulsion
> >
> > If you want to get picky, internal or external combustion "motors" are
> > correctly called engines, not motors.
> >
> > BB
>
> Actually, I didn't want to get picky, or know the "definition" of motor
> (vs Engine, etc). I need to know what Transport Canada regards a "motor"
> because that's the cornerstone of the Operator's Card requirement: that
> the boat have a "motor". And as we all know, the LEGAL definition of a
> word is not necessarily the "common" definition (eg "consideration").
>
> I'd like to get my Lady to get her Card anyway, so she can legally operate
> the Tin Boat, or Far Cove. But she LIKES running Near Cove with the
> electric, so she's more likely to get one if it's required for that. She
> clearly does NOT need one to paddle Miss Lily.
>
> Lloyd Sumpter - Operator Card #0150026627
>

<BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com> wrote in message
news:qobe00115n3srg3sa0i788r6tot2bampkk@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:12:47 GMT, "Don White"
<white@nsknospm.sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
> snip> "motor", they describe it as being either 10 H.P. or 7.5 KW in size.

Which perhaps explains the popularity of the 9.9 HP designation.

surfnturf

> is electric, gasoline or diesel, it doesn't count unless it is over 10 HP
or 7.5
> KW in size. That also seems to indicate that Canada considers any type of
power
> to be a "motor", but motors of any kind under a certain size don't count
any
> way.
>
>

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 00:31:16 GMT, BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:

>I spent some time on the TransportCanada website to see if I could find anything
>to sort this out. The only clue I found is that whenever they refer to a
>"motor", they describe it as being either 10 H.P. or 7.5 KW in size. That
>indicates to me that in Canada, regardless of whether the mechanical populsion
>is electric, gasoline or diesel, it doesn't count unless it is over 10 HP or 7.5
>KW in size. That also seems to indicate that Canada considers any type of power
>to be a "motor", but motors of any kind under a certain size don't count any
>way.

There IS an age horsepower restriction. The biggest reason for the 9.9HP, is you
don't need to license a vessle under 7.5KW/10HP. So you can hang a 9.9 on your
tin boat and go fishing. If you hang a 10HP or a 15HP, then you have to license
the boat.

The Operators Proficiency Card is required for any boat under 4 meters with any
type of motor. I've got a little inflateable with a 1.2HP outboard. For that I
had to get a card. For the big boat, I don't need it till 2009, but that's not
that far away. 

So the short answer, is your wife requires a card to legally operate the tender
with a trolling motor. 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:53:23 +0000, BinaryBillTheSailo wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:21:04 GMT, Rick <woodtugs@dearthlink.nyet>
> wrote:
> 
   <SNIP>
 
> An outboard motor is not an engine
> 
> 
> Both contain engines.
> 
> 
> The people who work with them are Engineers, not Motorers.
> 

   Actually, the term "Engineer" comes from the latin "ingenieur", which
is the same root as the work "ingenious" :). However, after I looked this
up in my Funk'n'Dictionary, I found that it's also the root for the word
"engine" so you're kinda right after all.

   Oh, and most "Engineers" don't work on engines - mechanics do.

   Amazing the arkane trivia you learn from reading rec.boats! (Is this
considered "Off-Topic"?)

Lloyd Sumpter, P.Eng.

If anyone really cares....

I collect and restore outboard motors.  But I think "motor" has become a
misused word as has engine.  Here's my cut at it:  A motor is powered buy
electricity and an engine is the result of combustion.

Hence my 220 volt powered table saw has a motor on it rather than an engine.
Also It may be more accurate to say I collect outboard engines.  However,
since my auto is not propelled with a battery powered motor, I don't have a
car motor I have a car engine.  Locomotives used to have steam engines (ever
hear of a "Steam Motor"), hummm now they have diesel powered electric
motors! Commercial airliners don't seem to contain jet motors, they seem to
contain jet engines.  Etc-ad inifinitum, ad nausaum.

But who cares?  (I do, I've wanted to correct the world on that for over 50
years!  That's my position and I'm stickin' by it ) !

Don Dando


"Lloyd Sumpter" <lsumpter@dccnet.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.01.16.19.14.31.816765@dccnet.com...
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:53:23 +0000, BinaryBillTheSailo wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:21:04 GMT, Rick <woodtugs@dearthlink.nyet>
> > wrote:
> >
>    <SNIP>
>
> > An outboard motor is not an engine
> >
> >
> > Both contain engines.
> >
> >
> > The people who work with them are Engineers, not Motorers.
> >
>
>    Actually, the term "Engineer" comes from the latin "ingenieur", which
> is the same root as the work "ingenious" :). However, after I looked this
> up in my Funk'n'Dictionary, I found that it's also the root for the word
> "engine" so you're kinda right after all.
>
>    Oh, and most "Engineers" don't work on engines - mechanics do.
>
>    Amazing the arkane trivia you learn from reading rec.boats! (Is this
> considered "Off-Topic"?)
>
> Lloyd Sumpter, P.Eng.
>
>

> BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:
> 
> > If you want to get picky, internal or external combustion "motors" are
> > correctly called engines, not motors. 

Don't get too picky, because that is not correct.  A "motor" is a
device that imparts motion.  And engine can just about any mechanical
device.  An motor could part of an engine.  Or a motor itself can be
called an engine.  So while it's normal to refer to your powerplant as
an engine, it no less correct to call it a motor.

"Lloyd Sumpter" <lsumpter@dccnet.com> wrote in message
>snip<
>    Oh, and most "Engineers" don't work on engines - mechanics do.
>

And thank your stars for that! (sorry Lloyd)

surfnturf

Been motoring around in a number of ways (bus, car, cycle, boat); but have
yet to encounter engine used in that context.

Have heard of engine used in somewhat archaic terms to describe a mechanical
device used to perform some sort of task. Which is what engineers do (hi
Lloyd!).  :-))

surfnturf


"Curtis CCR" <curtisccr@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:c678797a.0401161511.3e8ebf81@posting.google.com...
> > BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:
> >
> > > If you want to get picky, internal or external combustion "motors" are
> > > correctly called engines, not motors.
>
> Don't get too picky, because that is not correct.  A "motor" is a
> device that imparts motion.  And engine can just about any mechanical
> device.  An motor could part of an engine.  Or a motor itself can be
> called an engine.  So while it's normal to refer to your powerplant as
> an engine, it no less correct to call it a motor.

I agree with you Don, at least that is what I was taught many years ago. But
then "ain't" wasn't considered a word back then. I guess I'm showing my age.


"Don Dando" <speedliner@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:r5_Nb.8413$t03.451@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
> If anyone really cares....
>
> I collect and restore outboard motors.  But I think "motor" has become a
> misused word as has engine.  Here's my cut at it:  A motor is powered buy
> electricity and an engine is the result of combustion.
>
> Hence my 220 volt powered table saw has a motor on it rather than an
engine.
> Also It may be more accurate to say I collect outboard engines.  However,
> since my auto is not propelled with a battery powered motor, I don't have
a
> car motor I have a car engine.  Locomotives used to have steam engines
(ever
> hear of a "Steam Motor"), hummm now they have diesel powered electric
> motors! Commercial airliners don't seem to contain jet motors, they seem
to
> contain jet engines.  Etc-ad inifinitum, ad nausaum.
>
> But who cares?  (I do, I've wanted to correct the world on that for over
50
> years!  That's my position and I'm stickin' by it ) !
>
> Don Dando
>
>
> "Lloyd Sumpter" <lsumpter@dccnet.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.01.16.19.14.31.816765@dccnet.com...
> > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:53:23 +0000, BinaryBillTheSailo wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:21:04 GMT, Rick <woodtugs@dearthlink.nyet>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> >    <SNIP>
> >
> > > An outboard motor is not an engine
> > >
> > >
> > > Both contain engines.
> > >
> > >
> > > The people who work with them are Engineers, not Motorers.
> > >
> >
> >    Actually, the term "Engineer" comes from the latin "ingenieur", which
> > is the same root as the work "ingenious" :). However, after I looked
this
> > up in my Funk'n'Dictionary, I found that it's also the root for the word
> > "engine" so you're kinda right after all.
> >
> >    Oh, and most "Engineers" don't work on engines - mechanics do.
> >
> >    Amazing the arkane trivia you learn from reading rec.boats! (Is this
> > considered "Off-Topic"?)
> >
> > Lloyd Sumpter, P.Eng.
> >
> >
>
>

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:14:05 GMT, BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:



>
>If you want to get picky, internal or external combustion "motors" are
>correctly called engines, not motors. 
>



The definitions can be found at Bartleby.vom


engine 
  
SYLLABICATION: en�gine 

1a. A machine that converts energy into mechanical force or motion. b.
Such a machine distinguished from an electric, spring-driven, or
hydraulic motor by its use of a fuel. 2a. A mechanical appliance,
instrument, or tool: engines of war. b. An agent, instrument, or means
of accomplishment. 3. A locomotive. 4. A fire engine. 5. Computer
Science A search engine. 

http://www.bartleby.com/61/51/E0145100.html


motor 
  
SYLLABICATION: mo�tor 

1. Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts
motion. 2. A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical
energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of
coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical
power. 3. A motor vehicle, especially an automobile: �It was a night
of lovers. All along the highway � motors were parked and dim figures
were clasped in revery� (Sinclair Lewis, Babbitt 1922). 

http://www.bartleby.com/61/24/M0442400.html


An engine, it would seem, is a type of motor.

Jack (retired teacher - some Language Arts and English)

__________________________________________________
Jack Dale
Swiftsure Sailing Academy
Director/ISPA and CYA Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
Phone: 1 (877) 470-SAIL (toll free) 
__________________________________________________

Hey Clams!
    Get back to the inline newsgroup- theres no room for hooligans like us
in here where all these fine mariners do is argue the finer points of what
to call that thing that pushes you around in the water, or is that H2O, errr
perhaps agua.... or maybe.... (lol so hard I'm keel-ing over)

C-ya back at bigweek
Bryan

Moot points,
    D-day is 2009, then TC says "everyone" operating any vessel in coastal
waterways will have to have one. They seem to think this will keep all the
idiots off the water. The license test is a joke and a cashgrab. So, we'll
have the same problems only they will be licensed then.

2centsworth

Bryan

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:58:40 +0000, Bryan Vranes wrote:

> Moot points,
>     D-day is 2009, then TC says "everyone" operating any vessel in coastal
> waterways will have to have one. 

Not quite. Everyone operating a MOTORIZED vessel. Hence the question...

Lloyd

"Lloyd Sumpter" <lsumpter@dccnet.com> wrote in message
news:102oak3at38eu47@corp.supernews.com...
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:58:40 +0000, Bryan Vranes wrote:
>
> > Moot points,
> >     D-day is 2009, then TC says "everyone" operating any vessel in
coastal
> > waterways will have to have one.
>
> Not quite. Everyone operating a MOTORIZED vessel. Hence the question...
>
> Lloyd
>

You have an accident.  Your lady can not drive you in the boat to help.  She
has no operators card.  Just have her get the card.  Should be no problem
for a witch to pass the test.

Oooooh-Not nice....... grow up

B

"Bryan Vranes" <flyerboyz@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:bu_Wb.40566$TPZ.22307@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Oooooh-Not nice....... grow up
>
> B
>
>

She even has a witch website.  Wikken maybe?

Thank you Lloyd, I sit corrected.
     I think every law or set of laws embody certain principles for the good
of those they protect. I think the present and coming laws set forth will
probably be amended continuously as the legal baby crawls and takes it's
first steps.
    Perhaps Transport Canada is still having it's own tug of war with this
very issue. To those that aren't sure, who cannot wait, who must know "right
now" whether or not they are safe to operate their vessels now and in the
future there are 2 choices; Call TC and don't hangup until they give you an
answer, or, study 30 minutes, drop a couple of bucks and do the test- it
really is quite easy and you'll be able to rest easy for many nights to
come.

regards
Bryan

mmmmkay??? (eyebrows raising)

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:17:55 +0000, Calif Bill wrote:

> 
> "Lloyd Sumpter" <lsumpter@dccnet.com> wrote in message
> news:102oak3at38eu47@corp.supernews.com...
>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:58:40 +0000, Bryan Vranes wrote:
>>
>> > Moot points,
>> >     D-day is 2009, then TC says "everyone" operating any vessel in
> coastal
>> > waterways will have to have one.
>>
>> Not quite. Everyone operating a MOTORIZED vessel. Hence the question...
>>
>> Lloyd
>>
>>
> You have an accident.  Your lady can not drive you in the boat to help.  She has
> no operators card.  Just have her get the card.  Should be no problem for a
> witch to pass the test.

Uh-huh...YOU wanna tell her that? ;)

She doesn't really like helming Far Cove or the Tin Boat, but she DOES like
putting around in Near Cove. If I can tell her she needs a license to do that,
she might actually get one.

She was going to get it at the boat show, but they were charging $40, plus the
$10 admission. Others (not at the boat show) charge as little as $25. But she
has ADD, so it's hard for her to knuckle down and study.

And yes, she is a witch, although she's more on the Kundalini path than wiccan
(don't ask me, I'm just a druid!)

Lloyd

"Don Dando" <speedliner@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:r5_Nb.8413
>
> .....Here's my cut at it:  A motor is powered buy
> electricity and an engine is the result of combustion.

I agree with you, basically, but here's a wrench to throw into it --

how do we categorize that thing referred to as a "hydraulic motor"?

What many friends and I arrived at over the years of trying to define all
the powered driving sources aboard large aircraft (combustion, electric,
hydraulic, pneumatic, etc.) is this:   an internal or external combustion
engine converts a fuel (energy source) into an alternate energy form, and
that alternate energy form drives the mechanical device that converts the
energy to motion.  A motor receives the driving energy form directly, and
uses it without further modification to drive the mechanical device that
converts the energy to motion.  Thus, the thing that drives your car or boat
(gas or diesel), and the jet  that powers a large aircraft, are all engines,
since they convert liquid fuel into air pressure, which ultimately drives
the device and converts to motion.  An electric, hydraulic, or pneumatic
"motor" receives energy in a directly usable form, and converts to motion
without further change.  Having said all that, the Europeans still refer to
motorcars, and motor sports, and huge numbers (perhaps a majority) of
Americans refer to that thing under the hood as their "motor".

JG

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:08:29 +0000, John Gaquin wrote:

> 
> "Don Dando" <speedliner@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:r5_Nb.8413
>>
>> .....Here's my cut at it:  A motor is powered buy electricity and an engine is
>> the result of combustion.
> 
> I agree with you, basically, but here's a wrench to throw into it --
> 
> how do we categorize that thing referred to as a "hydraulic motor"?
> 
> What many friends and I arrived at over the years of trying to define all the
> powered driving sources aboard large aircraft (combustion, electric, hydraulic,
> pneumatic, etc.) is this:  

Wow - you guys REALLY need to get a life! ;)

Lloyd

I have a good one to give them headaches!

While having your canoe towed by a swimming dog is clearly not mechanical propulsion
what if you have her running in a wheel and the motion of that wheel is transfered
thru a contraption to turn a propeller?

It's clear to me you have an engine aboard but not a motor. :-)

But better: would you then need the PCO as it could be considered as a mechanical
propulsion device as by strict interpretation of the text of the regulation?

I think I will have a good time reading your arguments!!! ;-)))

Jean Dufour
Montreal, Qc

Lloyd Sumpter wrote:

> Wow - you guys REALLY need to get a life! ;)
>
> Lloyd