🚀 go-pugleaf

Verne L Smith wrote:

  Recently my partner suggested the following for those who use a
  strong 2 Club system and an artificial 2 Diamond opening, Flannery,
  mini-roman, multi, etc.  and are frustrated when they have a perfect

  hand for a weak 2 Diamonds.

  2 Clubs is a weak 2 bid in diamonds  --  or a big hand.

As meritorious as such a scheme might be (consider an extended version,
where 2C, 2D, 2H, and 2S show preempts in the next higher suit, or a
strong-2 in the bid suit), I do not believe it is GCC legal.  I do not
believe you are permitted 2-level openings that may be combinations of
weak, intermediate or strong ranges.

--binkley

In article <5fpgqp$s9i$1@news.mdc.net> smitty@mdc.net (Verne L Smith) writes:
 >Recently my partner suggested the following for those who use a
 >strong 2 Club system and an artificial 2 Diamond opening, Flannery,
 >mini-roman, multi, etc.  and are frustrated when they have a perfect
 >hand for a weak 2 Diamonds.
 >
 >2 Clubs is a weak 2 bid in diamonds  --  or a big hand.
 >
 >Responder's initial response assumes a weak 2 Diamonds.
 >
 >1)  2 Diamonds, would have passed a weak 2 Diamond opening, not
 >forcing.  A new suit or NT by opener shows the big hand.
 >
 >2)  3 or 4 Diamonds, would have bid this over a weak 2 D, not
 >forcing.  A new suit or NT by opener shows the big hand and is
 >natural.
 >
 >3)  New suit, 1 round force.  A new suit or NT by opener shows the
 >big hand.
 >
 >4)  2 NT, would have bid 2 NT over a weak 2, asks for A or K of a
 >side suit.  Opener's 3 NT would show balanced or semi-balanced
 >22-24, jump in any suit shows big hand, 5+ card suit and prepared to
 >bid a 2nd suit if a two-suiter.  4 Clubs by opener would be Gerber.
 >
 >Verne (VL) on OKB

So opener, with a balanced 22-to-24, opens 2C; and responder, with 
x xxxx xxxxx xxx bids 4D?  (Or even 5D?) And opener is supposed to
rebid 4NT and expect to make it, when everyone else in the room is
struggling in 2NT?

                                -- Adam

Verne L Smith posted, Fri, 7 Mar 1997
Re: 2 way 2 Clubs
>Recently my partner suggested the following for those who use a
>strong 2 Club system and an artificial 2 Diamond opening, Flannery,
>mini-roman, multi, etc.  and are frustrated when they have a perfect
>hand for a weak 2 Diamonds.
>
>2 Clubs is a weak 2 bid in diamonds  --  or a big hand.
>
>Responder's initial response assumes a weak 2 Diamonds.

This system is restricted licence (larger tournaments, knockouts) in
UK where two bids an have any number of weak meanings as long as one 
or more is strong. This is a generalisation of Multi 2D which is still
(as of today) general licence here.

I have added a weak 2D to my 2C recently, but so far it has not come up

Got the method from Dave Keen( Doc) who has played this for years. In
his system 2C-2H = Strong in suit bid or weak in suit above. He uses 2S
as Tartans and also includes  2NT type hands also in the mix.  Mike
Swanson who is an EBU chief TD says he gave it to Dave.

I hope to  expand the notes on my web page once I have a little real
experience of this style. (Or postings/Emails from the Group)

-- 
Chris Ryall  New(ish) web page: A collection of weak two styles
(tomcat)     Emails welcome with any I have not yet found!
             http://www.cavendish.demon.co.uk/bridge/weak2.htm

Adam Beneschan) writes:
>Verne L Smith) writes:
> >Recently my partner suggested the following for those who use a
> >strong 2 Club system and an artificial 2 Diamond opening, Flannery,
> >mini-roman, multi, etc.  and are frustrated when they have a perfect
> >hand for a weak 2 Diamonds.
> >

> >2 Clubs is a weak 2 bid in diamonds  --  or a big hand.

I think that this is a good approach, mainly to protect the strong
hands against preempts.

> >3)  New suit, 1 round force.  A new suit or NT by opener shows the
> >big hand.
> >4)  2 NT, would have bid 2 NT over a weak 2, asks for A or K of a
> >side suit.  Opener's 3 NT would show balanced or semi-balanced
> >22-24, jump in any suit shows big hand, 5+ card suit and prepared to
> >bid a 2nd suit if a two-suiter.  4 Clubs by opener would be Gerber.

A possible improvement is to swap 2H and 2NT.  Over 2H(hearts), you
usually bid 3D or 3H, so, except for who is playing the final contract,
it doesn't really make a difference if this auction starts 2C-2NT or 2C-2H.
But over a forcing relay you like to specify your weak 2 as much as
possible below 3D.  But over 2NT, you have only 1 bid below 3D, after
2C-2H, you have 3.  One approach is:

 2C-2H-2S:  Weak 2D, with a side card H/S, 2NT asks where
       2NT: Weak 2 with a semi-solid suit
       3C:  Weak 2D, C A or K
       3D:  Weak 2D, minimum hand

>So opener, with a balanced 22-to-24, opens 2C; and responder, with 
>x xxxx xxxxx xxx bids 4D?  (Or even 5D?) And opener is supposed to
>rebid 4NT and expect to make it, when everyone else in the room is
>struggling in 2NT?

Well, responder is supposed to switch his brains on....  If the auction
starts 2C-pass to you, and you hold this hand, what do you think opener
has?  I wouldn't bid 4D on this one, I'm not even sure if I would bid
3D.  Why tell the opponents that you have 10+ diamonds and no points?
Leave LHO guessing for a while.

And, while this method may get you too high occasionally, think about
the hands where partner has a strong hand and RHO one would preempt over 
2C but not over a weak 2D.  At your table, the auction starts: 2C, pass,
2D, pass, rebid, where all other table have to deal with 2C, preempt.

Henk.
 
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Henk Uijterwaal                      Email: henk@desy.de
University of Oxford                   WWW: http://www-zeus.desy.de/~uijter/
DESY-F01                             Phone: +49.40.89983133
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%DCL-E-NOCFFE, unable to locate coffee - keyboard input suspended.

Verne L Smith (smitty@mdc.net) wrote:
: Recently my partner suggested the following for those who use a
: strong 2 Club system and an artificial 2 Diamond opening, Flannery,
: mini-roman, multi, etc.  and are frustrated when they have a perfect
: hand for a weak 2 Diamonds.
: 
: 2 Clubs is a weak 2 bid in diamonds  --  or a big hand.
: 
: Responder's initial response assumes a weak 2 Diamonds.
: 
: 1)  2 Diamonds, would have passed a weak 2 Diamond opening, not
: forcing.  A new suit or NT by opener shows the big hand.

Up to this point you are almost fine. However, responder cannot 
afford to always imagine he is opposite the weak D type, since he
may want to preempt opposite weak D, but not opposite a big hand.
When I played this style, I came up with the following set of 
responses, which seems to work pretty well:

2C-

2D, as above, more or less.

2H puppet to 2S (assuming weak 2D) mainly showing 'I know where I want to 
   play, and it isn't 2D' types (eg 5-10 3613 shape). Opposite a strong hand, 
   it sets up a GF, and a mild slam interest.
   2S weak 2D
      Pass To play
      2N - To play
      3C - To play
      3D - To play
      3H - To play
   2N Strong
   3C Strong
   3D Strong
   etc

2S Strength & 4 card Major enquiry, game interest opposite weak 2D,
   hence slam forcing opposite a strong hand
   2N Big hand, any shape, slam forcing
      3C relay
         Natural bidding.
   3C Upper range, no 4 card major
   3D Lower range
      Anything other than pass is GF, natural
   3H Upper range, 4H
   3S Upper range, 4S

2N Game forcing opposite weak 2D, slam forcing opposite Big hand.
   3C Big hand
      3D relay
         Natural bidding
   3D No 4 card major
   3H 4H
   3S 4S

3C 5D, 5+ hcp. To compete to 4D opposite D.
   3D Big hand with a minor, GF
      3H relay
         3S = diamonds
         3N = clubs
   3H Big hand with H, GF
   3S Big hand with S, GF
   3N Big balanced hand
   4C Big 2 suiter with C + Major
   4D Weak 2D
   4H Big 2 suiter with D + H
   4S Big 2 suiter with D + S

Obviously this isn't optimal for competing when you have a weak 2, but is
does ensure that your constructive bidding when opening has a strong hand
is minimally damaged, and that should be, I think, a primary consideration.

Cheers,
Robin

Adam Beneschan wrote:
> 
> In article <5fpgqp$s9i$1@news.mdc.net> smitty@mdc.net (Verne L Smith) writes:
>  >Recently my partner suggested the following for those who use a
>  >strong 2 Club system and an artificial 2 Diamond opening, Flannery,
>  >mini-roman, multi, etc.  and are frustrated when they have a perfect
>  >hand for a weak 2 Diamonds.
>  >
>  >2 Clubs is a weak 2 bid in diamonds  --  or a big hand.
>  >
>  >Responder's initial response assumes a weak 2 Diamonds.
>  >
>  >1)  2 Diamonds, would have passed a weak 2 Diamond opening, not
>  >forcing.  A new suit or NT by opener shows the big hand.
>  >
>  >2)  3 or 4 Diamonds, would have bid this over a weak 2 D, not
>  >forcing.  A new suit or NT by opener shows the big hand and is
>  >natural.
>  >
>  >3)  New suit, 1 round force.  A new suit or NT by opener shows the
>  >big hand.
>  >
>  >4)  2 NT, would have bid 2 NT over a weak 2, asks for A or K of a
>  >side suit.  Opener's 3 NT would show balanced or semi-balanced
>  >22-24, jump in any suit shows big hand, 5+ card suit and prepared to
>  >bid a 2nd suit if a two-suiter.  4 Clubs by opener would be Gerber.
>  >
>  >Verne (VL) on OKB
> 
> So opener, with a balanced 22-to-24, opens 2C; and responder, with
> x xxxx xxxxx xxx bids 4D?  (Or even 5D?) And opener is supposed to
> rebid 4NT and expect to make it, when everyone else in the room is
> struggling in 2NT?
> 
>                                 -- Adam

This 2-way 2C is popular in Holland. I play it too.
However, because of the problems stated by Adam, I (and everybody else
too, I think) play it more like this:
 * 2D - relay, weakish. Yesterday I bid this with AKQ/KQxx/xx/T9x so
it's not necessarily all that weak.
 * 2H/S - real, non-forcing, Usually a weak two in that suit. This
actually works quite well, particularly in matchpoints.
 * 2NT - Strong. I play it as asking about the quality of the diamond
suit (assuming a weak D):
3C=2 top honors, 3D = 1 top honor, 3NT = 3 top honors.
 * 3D/4D - pre-emptive. But you have to be quite sure that opener is not
strong!

All in all the costs are quite low, particularly if you already play 2D
as a relay.

--
Frans Buijsen

Henk Uijterwaal (Oxford) posted, Sat, 8 Mar 1997
Re: 2 way 2 Clubs
>
>> >2 Clubs is a weak 2 bid in diamonds  --  or a big hand.
>
>I think that this is a good approach, mainly to protect the strong
>hands against preempts.
>
I think this is one of the best points so far.  

When I was younger oppo uses to be more respectful when I opened 
2C and leave us to enjoy our cultured sequences at leasure C:># 

Nowadays they seem to come in on tram tichets!  I have also weakened 
my 2C to include 4441.18+ Roman 2D types and Acol major 2's.  Although
these are all basically strong and the 4441 can be vicious in defense
I see a weak (and common) inclusion as a useful counterattack

How to unravel ???

Seq:               2 clubber rebids:
2C-2D(semipos)     pass - weak two
                   2H/S Acol two or stronger
                   2NT 4441

2C-2H/S(paradox)   Pass still with weak-2! In paradox method 
                   the 2D can be very moderate and I don't 
                   mind 7 off  undoubled. Other as system

2C-2NT (new and    3C all 2C=GF types then nat.
forcing v.weak-2   3D Weak 2 in diamonds then nat.
say 15+)           3H/S Acol two majors
                   3NT-4H 4441 suit below splinter

2C-3NT             Say 16 bal and assuming 2Dweak (otherwise 7NT)

2C (they bid)      Impudence! But it seems safe for reponder to
                   t.o double if we can bid up in diamonds safely

But is the sequence 2C-2H pass on combined rubbish ethical?
Certainly not general licence stuff!

-- 
Chris Ryall  Paradox responses to Strong 2 Clubs
(tomcat)     Combine Acol 2C, Stong Major two and 16+ 3 suited types.
             http://www.cavendish.demon.co.uk/bridge/2c.htm