Thread View: rec.games.design
3 messages
3 total messages
Started by Steffan O'Sullivan
Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:25
Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Author: Steffan O'Sullivan
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:25
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:25
122 lines
6455 bytes
6455 bytes
I posted this a couple of weeks ago, before this thread started, but no responded - perhaps it never made it out to the net. So here it is again . . . I had called it META RPG: Magic Systems in General or something like that . . . ---------------- Let's examine what folks want in a magic system. Everyone who plays a genre with magic can play this game, and it will be useful to both FUDGE and the net.rpg folks. Here's what I want: 1) An alternative to a list of spells. If some folks want a set list, fine: they can have one. But any system I play has to have the other option available. In my experience, a set list of spells leads to stagnation, no matter how large the list. 2) Some way to encourage the magician not to use the same spells all the time. This can be either carrot or stick, though carrot is nicer. (Example of stick method: "You lose some sanity for casting the same spell twice in one gaming session." Example of carrot method: "+1 to a spell you haven't cast in this gaming session yet.") 3) No automatic magic results, at least for humans, except for magic items. While I fully admit this is not in keeping with magicians of legend, it makes for a better game, I believe. What else should be here? Next topic: what types of magic to emulate? Well, what types have you got? As I see it, there are: 1) Real magic, as studied by anthropologists and people like Bonewitts. 2) Legendary magic, as told in myths and legends from around the globe. 3) Folklore magic, a subset of the above that tends to be simplified and even purified. 4) Fictional magic, which can be broken down into at least two subtypes: 4A) Pre-RPG 4B) Post RPG Taking them one at a time: 1) Despite the fact that Bonewitts wrote a game book based on this, I find it's not really suitable for gaming. These rituals are very slow and elaborate, often requiring a lot of paraphernalia. Bonewitts splits magic up into over 20 separate laws. Frazer (1890) only used two: the Law of Contagion and the Law of Similarity. Mauss (1903) renamed the Law of Contagion the Law of Contiguity, and added a third: the Law of Opposition. These can be summed up as: Law of Contiguity: Each one is the whole and the whole is in each one. This allows affecting a subject if you have his fingernail clippings, a piece of hair, scrap of clothing, etc. Subjects can be non-sentient, even inanimate: you can grow a whole tree from a piece of bark; you can recreate a house from just a nail. It also allows for augury: the whole pattern of the universe is contained in the pattern of the stars, or in the way your tea leaves settle in your cup, or the draw of tarot cards, etc. Further uses of this law include creating a fireball from a small flame, or Death from a bone, or poison a man by poisoning the food he left on his plate, and so on. You can become a different shape if you have part of it: wearing a bear skin turns you into a bear, for example. Law of Similarity: Like produces like; like cures like. This law allows you to fashion a likeness of someone or something, then affect it by acting on the likeness. Burning a doll is a good way to kill someone in this type of magic. Likewise, grinding a powder from a sword that wounded you, then drinking a potion containing the powder will cure you. Lighting a small fire will create a bright light, and so on. (Yes, I know that's the same result as you can get with the law of Contiguity. This fact didn't bother primitive magicians, though.) Law of Opposition: Opposite drives away opposite. To beat back a flood, light a match and chant the appropriate ritual. Goodness drives out evil: food (life-giving substance) spread on a wound will drive out the Death it represents. And so on. Oddly enough, Mauss and Frazer feel that it doesn't matter whether the agent that accomplishes the magical task is a summoned entity or some hidden controlling power of nature: that's just the vehicle, and is irrelevant for their discussions. Bonewitts splits summoned entities into two different categories, however. 2) Legendary Magic: this is also tough to game. Usually these are very powerful magicians, or heroes who have been granted one or a few gifts (sometimes internal powers, sometimes merely magic items) who never seem to fail in their magic. At least, the stories don't mention it. They cast spells and the spells happen as they wish. Magic is limited to a few, but is very potent. Sometimes a hero will have only one to three powers, but they will still be powerful: flight, invisibility, and a sword that never misses are examples. Some stories do involve limited number of uses: three wishes, or you may become invisible three times only, etc., but that makes it rough for gaming with an on-going character. 3) This is the toughest to game: Magic is usually just "wishes come true," or involves never-failing items or otherworld companions (often animals) who advise the hero exactly how to behave. 4B) Out of order, but I wish to dispense with it immediately: I don't like most of it. It seems to be influenced either by roleplaying games directly, or by other literature that is influenced by roleplaying games. The magic in it bears little resemblance to any of the other categories, and seems mostly derived from games. Obviously, there are exceptions - those I'll simply lump in with 4A. 4A) Here's where it gets interesting, to me. This includes Arthurian literature, the Charlemagne cycle, Ariosto, Spencer, and many later authors such as MacDonald, Dunsany, Tolkein, Howard, deCamp, Morris, Leiber, Kutner, Moore, Vance, Anderson, Bellairs, LeGuin, etc., etc. The advantage of fictional sources instead of legendary is that magicians are more human in fiction: they have flaws, they sometimes fail. Sometimes the magic doesn't work, which is very nice for gaming purposes. I've blathered long enough - time to let someone else say something. -- - Steffan O'Sullivan sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Author: John H Kim
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:05
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:05
165 lines
9592 bytes
9592 bytes
Right, so there has been alot of talk about "magic" here recently, and now that I'm done with finals, I would like to say a few things about it. Obviously, almost all of us want different things from a magic system. That's fine. I've played using Hindu ascetic magic, Chinese magic charms, European witchcraft, a magic system based in Platonic ideas (in the Old West!), magic based on manipulating an other-dimensional machine, magic based on flow of power (from Ley lines, spirits, or blood), magic based on knowledge, and many more. The important thing is not what magic *should* be like (which is clearly a matter of taste), but how to get what you want out of a magic system. Here are some of my thoughts on how to construct a magic system for an RPG you are working on. Ask yourself a number of questions: 1) Where does the power come from? Ultimately, there needs to be a cause for magic. In terms of game mechanics, the question of 'why' is not that important, but a good answer will add enormously to the 'feel' of a magic system. The power of magic may be a flow of some energy guided by biological beings, or based on mystical correspondances, or anything else. Note that the practitioners of magic need not know the details of this basis, nor do different practitioners need to agree. However, people will by nature ask 'why', and they will find or invent answers. If you want to retain a mysterious feel to magic, then it is best that these answers be vague, incomplete, and/or contradictory. Even better is if you have details which the players do not - so there is a mystery to how magic works beyond just randomness and GM whim. The source of magic is easiest to invent in worlds which have a distinct cosmology. For example, in Ursula Le Guin's 'Earthsea' trilogy, magic is done by speaking in the true langauge, which was what the Creator spoke to name and define the world. The nature of the world guides the definition of magic. In other cases, use your imagination: magic can be done by guiding a flow of energy through your nerves and body, or it can be done by manipulating nodes of power which associate themselves with certain qualities, etc. Remember that there can be more than one 'magic' phenomena in your world, each of which has its own source and patterns. A campaign in medieval Europe may have a cabalistic magic of spirits, power words, and numerology distinguished from the primitive charms of witchcraft. 2) Who can use it? In many systems, some people will be more able to use magic than others. The question is: what makes them so special? Ability in magic may be an inborn talent, or just knowledge and skill, or a gift granted by spirits, or gods, or other mages. 3) What are they like? That is, what distinguishes mages from mundanes and from each other? What are the attributes and skills which define a person's magical abilities? Here we get into the meat of the system. The attributes can be extremely diverse. Any inborn talent involved in magic should be defined here. Perhaps there is an inborn potential for sheer power of spells, but control and accuracy are learned skills. OTOH, it may be that like the Force, control of magic is instinctive, but you must learn to tap into the power it provides. It generally makes it easier in a campaign with PC mages if magic is something learned or improved rather than entirely inborn. This way, the mage's power can increase with experience like the mundane PC's. Skills are much more tricky. First, divide your magic up into whatever subdivisions and specializations you can think of: enchantments, illusions, charms, etc. Many recent systems do this by distinguishing skill into Actions and Objects: Actions are skills in doing certain operations with magic, Objects are what is acted upon. So a magical command might be the action of 'Control' and the object of 'Mind'. This allows a wide variety of abilities with fewer skills. One can also define Modifiers: skills which alter or enhance effects. There might be a skill to make spells last longer, or a skill in accurately directing spells, or in making them act at further ranges. An important thing to keep in mind here is the degree to which your system encourages specialization. Many GM's prefer a magic to be highly varied in their games. It is then important that it should be easier and more effective for a mage to diversify than to increase his power. The best advice I have for this is to put yourself in a player's shoes, and try to think of how you would build your mage. If neccessary, introduce a graded cost to skills or attributes, so that it is easier to improve a low skill than a high one. A simpler alternative is just talking to your players and asking or forcing them to take abilities in a manner you prefer. 4) How do they do it? That is, what is involved in using magic. Do practitioners speak words of power to cast spells? Or do they carve runes and empower them with their blood? It could be words and gestures simply serve as tools for concentra- tion, and it is only the thoughts of the mage that really matter. This view is often taken by more modern views of magic. However, be careful about this, because if a mage can cast spells by thought alone, it means there is no way for mundanes to 'disarm' him short of killing him. Try to think of details here: how long does it usually take to work magic? Many systems distinguish 'spells' which take only a few seconds, 'rituals' which take several hours, and 'enchantments' which take weeks. Others just give benefits from longer times taken. What effects does working magic have upon the caster? Is he fatigued physically or perhaps mentally? Does he lose the magical energy he has collected? Remember that it is often important for game balance that magic take a significant amount of time to cast or to recover from. 5) What does it do? Here is the trickiest part. Now that you have a set of attributes and skills, how do your determine what a mage can do? You could simply lump together the involved skills in some way, and then roll that against a difficulty determined by a GM estimate of how tough the spell is. However, the more guidelines and examples you give, the more players will be encouraged to use and experiment with spells. In addition, off-the-cuff GM estimates tend to judge the spell on how much it effects game balance rather than how it fits into the principles you have developed. This can lead to inconsistancies, such as when the exact same effect is more difficult when it is more central to the plot. It is possible, but very difficult, to set up a more objective difficulty scale. As an example, I developed a difficulty scale for spells in my 'Dreamworld' campaign. Magecraft, as it was called in this game, was based directly on how much you knew about the target. The base difficulty for the initial roll was then judged on a scale like this: Dif- Knowledge- 0 Object Talent: knows everything humanly possible about the target 5 Familiar/Well Known: a casual friend, a old servant, a household object (has interacted with for a long period of time) 10 Detailed: a good briefing on the target, and has had significant interaction with it. 15 Basics: has interacted with the target for a short time, or has observed it for a long time, and has some additional information 20 Just perceived: a cursory inspection, and nothing more Perception Modifiers: +0 Target is in close sight +1-+3 Distantly or indirectly seen +3 Not seen but heard or felt +5 Not perceived at all This way, the players had a consistant estimate of how difficult they thought a spell should be. Magic was rarely a sure thing, however, because the intended targets would often have unrevealed secrets - so the level of knowledge was often less than the mage thought. Note that this completely changes the nature of game balance: magic does not conform to game balance here, but rather defines it. 6) How are they viewed by others? That is, what is the position of practitioners in society. Are they leaders of the community, like shamans, or are they reviled and burnt at the stake? Or are they somewhere in between. While not a part of the magic system per se, this is very important to the role which magic will play in your campaign. ------------ Whew. That's about it for now. This is by no means a complete document - rather something I threw together this afternoon after getting out of exams. Hope it doesn't bore everyone too much. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Kim | "ALERT: /Earth is 75% full - please delete jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | all extraneous people." Columbia University |
Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Author: Steffan O'Sullivan
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 02:23
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 02:23
6 lines
680 bytes
680 bytes
Just a quick note to thank John Kim for his list of things to consider in magic systems. I was pleased to see that I had covered 90% of them in FUDGE 12/12, and I quickly added the rest - thanks! -- - Steffan O'Sullivan sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Thread Navigation
This is a paginated view of messages in the thread with full content displayed inline.
Messages are displayed in chronological order, with the original post highlighted in green.
Use pagination controls to navigate through all messages in large threads.
Back to All Threads