🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1992Dec29.155739.27343@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir) writes:
)Nobles!

	Very few of reading this group I bet.
 
)It seems to me that while there is a general lack of discussion in this
)group that there is a lot of discussion of heraldic matters which have
)general interest in rec.org.sca and the CoA mailing list.  I still think
)that these discussions belong in this forum.  I see no advantage to
)distributing heraldic discussions in rec.org.sca as they will then be
)disseminated to exactly the same sites as rec.heraldry.

	This group is for discussion of Heraldry and related matters.
SCA heraldry is only a very small subset of that subject, and one of only
limited interest, I suspect, to the majority of the readers of this
group (it is also of interest to only a very limited set of readers of 
rec.org.sca, but that is another story...)

	There is not, as far as I know, a CoA mailing list in electronic
form.  There is a mailing list for discussion among SCA heralds, but
that is *not* the same thing.  SCAHRLDS has no official status with
either the SCA or with its College of Arms.  It is a tool, like an
armorial.

	If SCA-specific heraldic discussion has any place on USENET, it 
would be rec.org.sca.  If it becomes non-SCA specific (and the discussion
you are refering to is not) then it might belong here.


-- 
Vnend, Lottery winner #316                 Ignorance is the mother of adventure.  
vnend@princeton.edu, vnend@pucc.bitnet, or {backbone}!princeton!nudity!vnend        
        Anonymous posting service (NO FLAMES!):vnend@ms.uky.edu                          
  The other car collided with mine without giving warning of its intentions.

vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) writes:

>In article <1992Dec29.155739.27343@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir) writes:
>)Nobles!

>	Very few of reading this group I bet.

This is an interesting question.  In my study of geneaology, I have found
that everyone of European descent seems to be able to claim descent from
a minor peer or at least a member of the gentry.  This does not necessarily
mean that these people are nobles, but it does say something about the 
kind of people who are generally attracted to heraldry and geneaology.

Katherine Merle Mason
Ne Oublie....

Katherine Merle Mason writes:
  This is an interesting question.  In my study of geneaology, I have found
  that everyone of European descent seems to be able to claim descent from
  a minor peer or at least a member of the gentry.  This does not necessarily
  mean that these people are nobles, but it does say something about the 
  kind of people who are generally attracted to heraldry and geneaology.

Or that the people you have contact with have self-selected that way.
Those, like myself, who found an interest in heraldry through the SCA,
are interested in heraldry and onomastics (and to a very much lesser
extent, geneaology) for very different reasons.

Another things to consider, is that for those folks whose European
Ancestry is of non-noble or differing classes, there is little
geneaology to work with.  For example, people of German Jewish
descent did not take consistent surnames until the early 1800s when
required to by law.  That makes geneaology difficult.

(Two gentleman named Schuldenfrei met about 13 years ago, in Florida.
They became convinced that they had to be related, although neither
had any known relatives in common.  They traced the family backwards
to three brothers (and an unknown quantity of sisters) with a common,
unnamed father, in what is today German-speaking Poland.  An
extremely serendipitous photograph of a statue in a graveyard provided
the headstone that was needed to find that ancestor.  But he was
the one who took that name: they were stymied.  Now, if only we knew
for sure which of two possible meanings of the name was intended...)

	schuldy/Mark Schuldenfrei
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]

In article <katherim.725753007@sfu.ca> katherim@fraser.sfu.ca (Katherine Merle Mason) writes:
>vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Dec29.155739.27343@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir) writes:
>>)Nobles!
>
>>	Very few of reading this group I bet.
>
>This is an interesting question.  In my study of geneaology, I have found
>that everyone of European descent seems to be able to claim descent from
>a minor peer or at least a member of the gentry.  

Now that's a fascionating assertion. And how do you prove it???

I can offer a counter-example: myself. Admittedly, I have not traced all
of my ancestors to the Middle Ages; but for 25% of my ancestry I know for
sure that they were peasants, and only peasants, and peasants for centuries.
If we could go back that far, I am sure they were all serfs (and I have the
genealogy of their lords, since they all came from the same village).

THe nobility was something of a cast, and practised interbreeding (still 
does).  The current pretender to the throne of France theoretically has
8192 ancestors at the 13th generation back: in fact, he only has 546. He
descends from Louis IX (died 1270) in 10,000 ways.

>This does not necessarily
>mean that these people are nobles, but it does say something about the 
>kind of people who are generally attracted to heraldry and geneaology.

I have no illusion of being linked by blood to any kind of nobility, but I
am nevertheless fascinated by heraldry and genealogy.  In my experience,
non-nobles can be interested, and nobles can be uninterested, in these matters.

As general information, the population of France is roughly 55 millions. 
There are 4000 noble families, or about 70,000 nobles in France, 0.12% of 
the population.

-- 

	Francois Velde

It alsio says a great deal about the fecundity of minor European nobility of
times past...  ;->

These folks really believed in having plenty of descendents, just in case of
Plague or war or infant motrtality, and they seem to have had a heck of a lot
of progeny several times removed from the main stem, by the time the US was
invented/discovered...

Suze

schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:

>Katherine Merle Mason writes:
>  This is an interesting question.  In my study of geneaology, I have found
>  that everyone of European descent seems to be able to claim descent from
>  a minor peer or at least a member of the gentry.  This does not necessarily
>  mean that these people are nobles, but it does say something about the 
>  kind of people who are generally attracted to heraldry and geneaology.

>Or that the people you have contact with have self-selected that way.
>Those, like myself, who found an interest in heraldry through the SCA,
>are interested in heraldry and onomastics (and to a very much lesser
>extent, geneaology) for very different reasons.

This is quite possibly true, however, I would consider that I have 
contact with a great many people who are genealogically inclined.  I 
am a member of the British Columbia genealogical society and I also
work with the archives of the New Westminster Museum, which often 
recieves visitors questing for genealogical information.  Even some
of my own relatives, I must admit, have fallen for this.  Certainly
there are people who are involved in geneaology for other reasons,
but in my experience a large number of them are on a noble-ancestor
quest.
 
>Another things to consider, is that for those folks whose European
>Ancestry is of non-noble or differing classes, there is little
>geneaology to work with.  For example, people of German Jewish
>descent did not take consistent surnames until the early 1800s when
>required to by law.  That makes geneaology difficult.

This is of course often the case.  There is usually, however, some form 
of data.  Gravestones, birth records, church records and if you are
lucky, census records.  It is however, much easier if you are related
to some famous personna because chances are some genealogical work has
already been done.

[interesting story deleted for brevity]
It is always dissapointing when geneaological research leads to dead
ends.  I know people who have traced a line of their ancestry back
to the eight century or so.  As anyone involved in geneaology knows,
that is quite a feat.  Personally, I have only traced to early 19th,
and that only with the help of my great grandmother.  

Katherine Merle Mason
Ne Oublie....
>	schuldy/Mark Schuldenfrei
>--
>Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
>[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]

In article <1992Dec29.155739.27343@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu>,
bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir) writes:
|>distributing heraldic discussions in rec.org.sca as they will then be
|>disseminated to exactly the same sites as rec.heraldry.

Except that rec.org.sca goes out as the SCA digest to the usenet-less in
the world.
            
Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	       Legislated morality is the enemy of true morality