🚀 go-pugleaf

Why not do something really crazy like ask permission?  I mean
it is his property and he went to the trouble to put up a
fence.  Also take care not to damage his fence, that will add
vandalism/destruction of property to trespass.

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phil <wanttorun100NOwaSPAM@altavista.com.invalid> writes:


>Why not do something really crazy like ask permission?  I mean
>it is his property and he went to the trouble to put up a
>fence.  Also take care not to damage his fence, that will add
>vandalism/destruction of property to trespass.


Because the question is 'does the trail constitute a public right-of-way?'
If it does then no trespass has been committed and asking permission
would seem to be an admission that no public right-of-way exists.

Robert M. Lewis
Curiouser and curiouser!

On 12 May 2000 11:12:47 -0400, bobg@Radix.Net (Robert Grumbine) wrote:

>About the worst thing to do, imho, is to be jumping that fence,
>get caught, and discover that you don't have the right and that
>the farmer is seriously peeved.


I couldn't agree more. If the land is indeed private now, you should
respect that to the upmost.

Eric

I would imagine that each state has different laws regarding your question.
In Indiana the answer to your question is a resounding no.  No there is no
presumption of public right of way.  The land now belongs wholly to the
farmer and he has obviously (by virtue of the fence) decided not to allow
public access.  By crossing a clear boundry (ie the fence) and having
knowledge that the public park has sold the property, you are trespassing
and subject to arrest.  Although some states require verbal or posted
warnings...most only require that it be fairly clear that the property is
closed to public access.

I would strongly suggest you approach the farmer and explain that you would
never damage any crops or structure he erects and request permission to
cross his land.  You could also explain that you would not extend his
courtesy to you to anyone else.

Leo  (no, I'm not a lawyer....many years of law enforcement exp.)

"Robert M. Lewis" wrote:

> A trail which I use ocassionally (a dozen times a year maybe) one day
> last week had a fence across it.  The trail (now less used than it once
> was) was on public park land.
>
> I called the park office and was told that the land which part of the
> trail ran across had been exchanged with the neigbouring farmer for some
> other land (actually to build a highway right through the park but that
> is another crime story).  I argued that the trail constituted
> a public right-of-way.  Their opinion was that as the land was now
> private and, combined with the fact that they had not been maintaining
> the trail, there was no public right-of-way.
>
> From what I know of the farmer he is a reasonable person.  The nature of
> the trail means that there would be no motorized of even bicycle use of
> it.  He has done nothing with the land yet (except fence it) but I
> imagine he will start to put crops in it at some point.  While one could
> skirt any area cultivation to get to the rest of the trail (still on
> public land) one does need to go on his land to get to the rest of the
> trail.
>
> I want to keep using the trail. While I guess I'll just go over the
> fence for the time being but I'd like to know exactly what my rights
> are. Should I inform the farmer of the existance of what I perceive as a
> right of way or just use it?  Am I correct in assuming that a public
> right-of-way exists?
>
> Robert M. Lewis
> Curiouser and curiouser!

In article <8fh5nv$r1v$1@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>,
Robert M. Lewis <lewis@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
>
>I called the park office and was told that the land which part of the 
>trail ran across had been exchanged with the neigbouring farmer for some
>other land 
...

>From what I know of the farmer he is a reasonable person.  

...

>I want to keep using the trail. While I guess I'll just go over the 
>fence for the time being but I'd like to know exactly what my rights
>are. Should I inform the farmer of the existance of what I perceive as a
>right of way or just use it?  Am I correct in assuming that a public
>right-of-way exists?

  If you really want to know the legalities, talk to a lawyer who
practices there (Memorial University of Newfoundland, Canada?).

  Given what you said, my feeling as a non-lawyer is that the land
swap has taken the land out of public use.  On the other hand, as the
farmer is reputed to be reasonable, just ask him if he'd mind you
crossing the stretch in question.

  About the worst thing to do, imho, is to be jumping that fence,
get caught, and discover that you don't have the right and that
the farmer is seriously peeved.

-- 
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much 
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they 
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences 

From all you've stated, the trail is no longer in the public domain.  Your
only recourse is to gain permission from the new owner.  If the government
traded the land to a private party, the public right-of-way has certainly
been revoked.  By building a fence, the new owner has made his intentions
known.  Not too hard to figure out?  Right of way is just semantics.  Who
owns the land is the real question.  If the farmer owns it, you're
tresspassing if you don't have his permission.

Why not be a friend and just ask?  Guaranteed, if he sees you hopping the
fence, he's probably thinking a bigger fence is needed (maybe electrified).

Remember -- even on public right-of-ways, this is a privalege, NOT a right.
(We Americans tend to confuse the two all too frequently).  Technically, you
didn't have a 'right' to be there even when it was public land.  Asking
permission won't change the facts...




Robert M. Lewis <lewis@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote in message
news:8fhp14$agi$1@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
> phil <wanttorun100NOwaSPAM@altavista.com.invalid> writes:
>
>
> >Why not do something really crazy like ask permission?  I mean
> >it is his property and he went to the trouble to put up a
> >fence.  Also take care not to damage his fence, that will add
> >vandalism/destruction of property to trespass.
>
>
> Because the question is 'does the trail constitute a public right-of-way?'
> If it does then no trespass has been committed and asking permission
> would seem to be an admission that no public right-of-way exists.
>
> Robert M. Lewis
> Curiouser and curiouser!

 "Robert M. Lewis" wrote:
 
> A trail which I use ocassionally (a dozen times a year maybe) one day
> last week had a fence across it.  The trail (now less used than it once
> was) was on public park land.
>
> I called the park office and was told that the land which part of the
> trail ran across had been exchanged with the neigbouring farmer for some
> other land (actually to build a highway right through the park but that
> is another crime story).  I argued that the trail constituted
> a public right-of-way.  Their opinion was that as the land was now
> private and, combined with the fact that they had not been maintaining
> the trail, there was no public right-of-way.

With all due respect to park employees, they know diddly about real
estate law.  

> From what I know of the farmer he is a reasonable person.  The nature of
> the trail means that there would be no motorized of even bicycle use of
> it.  He has done nothing with the land yet (except fence it) but I
> imagine he will start to put crops in it at some point.  While one could
> skirt any area cultivation to get to the rest of the trail (still on
> public land) one does need to go on his land to get to the rest of the
> trail.
>
> I want to keep using the trail. While I guess I'll just go over the
> fence for the time being but I'd like to know exactly what my rights
> are. Should I inform the farmer of the existance of what I perceive as a
> right of way or just use it?  Am I correct in assuming that a public
> right-of-way exists?
>
> Robert M. Lewis

Your best bet is to call The Nature Conservency, remind them that you
have been a (small) financial supporter for years and have also worked
in their grassroot political organizing. Better yet, call some of the
officers there with whom you have worked, suggesting that they buy
either the land or an easement for the trail. If you volunteer to
raise some of the purchase money locally, you are more likely to get
someone's attention,

Or, in a week or two, when you once again attend your Sierra Club
chapter's monthly meeting, explain what is going on, and ask if anyone
will accompany you on a visit to the farmer. A couple of you asking
for the farmer's cooperation might just be enough.

Now, aren't you glad you have been doing the right thing all along.
Going to these organizations to introduce yourself for the first time,
hat in hand, is not the best way to keep your hiking trails open.

Stay off his land. You are trespassing. 

lewis@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Robert M. Lewis) hypothesizes:

>> A trail which I use ocassionally (a dozen times a year maybe) one day
>> last week had a fence across it.  The trail (now less used than it once
>> was) was on public park land.  
>> 
>> I called the park office and was told that the land which part of the 
>> trail ran across had been exchanged with the neigbouring farmer for some
>> other land (actually to build a highway right through the park but that
>> is another crime story).  I argued that the trail constituted
>> a public right-of-way.  Their opinion was that as the land was now
>> private and, combined with the fact that they had not been maintaining
>> the trail, there was no public right-of-way.
>> 
>> From what I know of the farmer he is a reasonable person.  The nature of
>> the trail means that there would be no motorized of even bicycle use of
>> it.  He has done nothing with the land yet (except fence it) but I
>> imagine he will start to put crops in it at some point.  While one could
>> skirt any area cultivation to get to the rest of the trail (still on
>> public land) one does need to go on his land to get to the rest of the
>> trail.
>> 
>> I want to keep using the trail. While I guess I'll just go over the 
>> fence for the time being but I'd like to know exactly what my rights
>> are. Should I inform the farmer of the existance of what I perceive as a
>> right of way or just use it?  Am I correct in assuming that a public
>> right-of-way exists?
>> 
>> Robert M. Lewis
>> Curiouser and curiouser!