🚀 go-pugleaf

   I'm sure this is in the most recent skating FAQ, but here goes the question
anyway.   Watching the women's US Nationals (they conveniently replace the men's
with basketball.   For some reason--ratings, I suspect, skating is routinely
pre-empted in favor of something else), the top skaters usually are given
some favor.   For example, Kwaikowski seemed to have more trouble making
her landings than say, Bobek.   Yet, she scored higher technically.  It
seems that once you have been in the business a while, and skate well, the
judges are willing to bump your scores higher, and a new, untested skater
lower.   Hence, Kerrigan might win because she may never have a chance
of winning a Nationals again (though unlikely, since this occurs every
year), and yet despite a fall, she still gets outstanding scores.   This
kind of scoring seems to apply to sports like synchronized swimming, as well.

    Of course, I am hardly an experienced spectator, so perhaps there were
artisitic merits that I failed to see in Kerrigan's routine that elevated
her above the others, but I get the feeling that this is not true.

    Right now, I'm not sure who the top people in the skating field are.
Americans usually fare poorly in the pairs, and it looks like that they may
fare not well again.   It seems all the good technical skaters go to singles
while the Russians don't have a top female singles skater, and only one top
male skater that I can recall, but always do well in the pairs.   The Russians
usually fare well in the ice dancing, and pairs.   The Americans is women's
singles, and men's singles (though, not lately).   If anyone has a list
of who is considered tops in the various categories, I'd like to see it.  I
assume Usova and Zhulin and Rakhamo and Koko(?) are tops in ice dancing.
I have no clue who's tops in ice pairs.   Women's, umm, I don't know.
Surya Bonaly is still skating.   There's Lou Chen, and Yuka Sato.  Of course,
there's Kerrigan, and Lisa Ervin looks promising.  Any others?  I have no idea
who's in the men's.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu

clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:



>   I'm sure this is in the most recent skating FAQ, but here goes the question
>anyway.   Watching the women's US Nationals (they conveniently replace the men's
>with basketball.   For some reason--ratings, I suspect, skating is routinely
>pre-empted in favor of something else), the top skaters usually are given
>some favor.   For example, Kwaikowski seemed to have more trouble making
>her landings than say, Bobek.   Yet, she scored higher technically.  It
>seems that once you have been in the business a while, and skate well, the
>judges are willing to bump your scores higher, and a new, untested skater
>lower.   Hence, Kerrigan might win because she may never have a chance
>of winning a Nationals again (though unlikely, since this occurs every
>year), and yet despite a fall, she still gets outstanding scores.   This
>kind of scoring seems to apply to sports like synchronized swimming, as well.
 
 I am not sure if this is the reason, but competitive roller-skating uses
an 'ordinals' system to determine winners of events. When the event is
completly finished, each judge gives each competitor a rank. (not a score)
So each judge can give only one 1st place, one 2nd place, and so on. So
as they are scoring each person individually, they have to take into
account skaters they havent seen and the 'probable' job that that skater 
will do. To be honest, I am not sure if figure skating uses the same 
scoring system. (I have gone to ice-skating competitions at the St. Mortiz
rink in Dublin Ca - home of Kristi, Brian, etc. and they used this system
of judging.) I dont know if it is used at the higher level competitions
though. And it has always kind of made me wonder how the 'number
score' given at the end of each performance plays into all of this. I have
seen 2 different competitors get the same number score from the same
judge (say a 5.9, etc.) So, you got me there... :) 

-diana


>    Of course, I am hardly an experienced spectator, so perhaps there were
>artisitic merits that I failed to see in Kerrigan's routine that elevated
>her above the others, but I get the feeling that this is not true.

>    Right now, I'm not sure who the top people in the skating field are.
>Americans usually fare poorly in the pairs, and it looks like that they may
>fare not well again.   It seems all the good technical skaters go to singles
>while the Russians don't have a top female singles skater, and only one top
>male skater that I can recall, but always do well in the pairs.   The Russians
>usually fare well in the ice dancing, and pairs.   The Americans is women's
>singles, and men's singles (though, not lately).   If anyone has a list
>of who is considered tops in the various categories, I'd like to see it.  I
>assume Usova and Zhulin and Rakhamo and Koko(?) are tops in ice dancing.
>I have no clue who's tops in ice pairs.   Women's, umm, I don't know.
>Surya Bonaly is still skating.   There's Lou Chen, and Yuka Sato.  Of course,
>there's Kerrigan, and Lisa Ervin looks promising.  Any others?  I have no idea
>who's in the men's.

>--
>Charles Lin
>clin@eng.umd.edu
-- 
______________________________________________________________________________
                                'It is only with the heart that one can see
Diana Tenery-Fisher  o/~         rightly. What is essential is invisible
cass@netcom.com                  to the eye'  -  The Little Prince    *143SKB*

In article <1993Jan24.203432.12605@netcom.com>, cass@netcom.com (Diana Tenery-Fisher) writes:
> 
> I am not sure if this is the reason, but competitive roller-skating uses
>an 'ordinals' system to determine winners of events. When the event is
>completly finished, each judge gives each competitor a rank. (not a score)
>So each judge can give only one 1st place, one 2nd place, and so on. So
>as they are scoring each person individually, they have to take into
>account skaters they havent seen and the 'probable' job that that skater 
>will do. To be honest, I am not sure if figure skating uses the same 
>scoring system. (I have gone to ice-skating competitions at the St. Mortiz
>rink in Dublin Ca - home of Kristi, Brian, etc. and they used this system
>of judging.) I dont know if it is used at the higher level competitions
>though. And it has always kind of made me wonder how the 'number
>score' given at the end of each performance plays into all of this. I have
>seen 2 different competitors get the same number score from the same
>judge (say a 5.9, etc.) So, you got me there... :) 
>

    They do use the ordinal system in figure skating, though it is probably
used in conjunction with the scoring.   That is, two people can get 5.9, but
there is also an ordinal given to the two skaters if they are reanked high enough.
My problem is not with the ordinals which may give scores that are artificially
high (i.e., a 5.9 in the Nationals would probably by a 5.6 or lower in the
Worlds), but with the fact that historically good skaters seem to automatically
have their scores boosted.   For example, suppose Nancy Kerrigan and, oh,
Nicole Bobek switched the routines, and each skated as well as the other
person.   I think you would still see that Kerrrigan would have won, and
Bobek scored low.   You really have to mess up, like Tonya Harding, or like
Kurt Browning in the Olympics to score bad.   All I'm saying is that it
seems to be that Nancy Kerrigan (or any skater of reasonable fame) are given
the benefit of the doubt if they do not skate a perfect routine, esp. if they
are known to have skated good routines in the past.   For example, this sort
of thing, I thought, happened with Paul Wylie in last year's Nationals, where
I thought he made enough mistakes that Mitchell should have been put ahead 
of him, but wasn't because Wylie's chances of getting into the Olympics another
time wasn't good.   Of course, this turned out to be a smart move, because
Wylie took advantage of the poor skating by other skaters, and turning in
a good performance at a big occasion, and winning the silver.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu

In article <1jt712INNr5n@mojo.eng.umd.edu>, clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> I have no clue who's tops in ice pairs.   Women's, umm, I don't know.
|> Surya Bonaly is still skating.   There's Lou Chen, and Yuka Sato.  Of course,
|> there's Kerrigan, and Lisa Ervin looks promising.  Any others?
|> 
|> --
|> Charles Lin
|> clin@eng.umd.edu

Surya Bonaly won the Europeans again, but keep an eye on the girl who came
second: Oksana Baiul from Ukraine. She was _very_ artistic, and landed
(among other things) a fabulous triple-lutz. A couple of errors, but then
she is only 15. Three of the judges placed her first (in her first year
of competition).

Saki
sjh@acl.lif.icnet.uk

In article <1jt712INNr5n@mojo.eng.umd.edu>, clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>    I'm sure this is in the most recent skating FAQ, but here goes the question
> anyway.   Watching the women's US Nationals (they conveniently replace the men's
> with basketball.   For some reason--ratings, I suspect, skating is routinely
> pre-empted in favor of something else), the top skaters usually are given
> some favor.   For example, Kwaikowski seemed to have more trouble making
> her landings than say, Bobek.   Yet, she scored higher technically.  It
> seems that once you have been in the business a while, and skate well, the
> judges are willing to bump your scores higher, and a new, untested skater
> lower.   Hence, Kerrigan might win because she may never have a chance
> of winning a Nationals again (though unlikely, since this occurs every
> year), and yet despite a fall, she still gets outstanding scores.   This
> kind of scoring seems to apply to sports like synchronized swimming, as well.
> 
>     Of course, I am hardly an experienced spectator, so perhaps there were
> artisitic merits that I failed to see in Kerrigan's routine that elevated
> her above the others, but I get the feeling that this is not true.
> 
>     Right now, I'm not sure who the top people in the skating field are.
> Americans usually fare poorly in the pairs, and it looks like that they may
> fare not well again.   It seems all the good technical skaters go to singles
> while the Russians don't have a top female singles skater, and only one top
> male skater that I can recall, but always do well in the pairs.   The Russians
> usually fare well in the ice dancing, and pairs.   The Americans is women's
> singles, and men's singles (though, not lately).   If anyone has a list
> of who is considered tops in the various categories, I'd like to see it.  I
> assume Usova and Zhulin and Rakhamo and Koko(?) are tops in ice dancing.
> I have no clue who's tops in ice pairs.   Women's, umm, I don't know.
> Surya Bonaly is still skating.   There's Lou Chen, and Yuka Sato.  Of course,
> there's Kerrigan, and Lisa Ervin looks promising.  Any others?  I have no idea
> who's in the men's.

===============================================================================
  The best men are Elvis Stoyko? (yes, Elvis) from Canada and Scott Davis
from
the US. I predict both of them will end up in the top 3 at Worlds. Both
have
CLEAN triples but Elvis edges out Scott in Composition (my humble opinion).

Mark Mitchell has been off lately, but he's also a contender (small jumps:(
). I
don't know who the Russian's are going to send, but they're always a
threat.
They have a dude who does a quad toe-loop in competition, but he may have
gone
pro. (I assume we're only considering amateurs here).
  Kerrigan's hot when she's on. Her triple lutz is textbook: she begins
rotation after she vaults (Yamaguichi always had to cheat a little at
take-off to complete the rotations). If Nancy smiled a little more I think
she would score higher. She always has that constipated look on her face!
  I'd rank Sato slightly above Chen. Chen is a rising star but needs to
work on her stamina. Bonaly is an awesome jumper but no style. Ervin's good
but needs to be more consistant. That will come with time. Tonya Harding is
by far the most athletic of the women (triple axel, now and then), but is
always plagued by health problems (asthma) which affect her consistancy.
  I predict Nancy 2nd in Worlds.
> 
> --
> Charles Lin
> clin@eng.umd.edu