🚀 go-pugleaf

bortiz@cms.cc.wayne.edu wrote:

[Yuri:]
: > Is it your opinion that bananas and yams were not grown in America before
: > Columbus? Are you sure you're right about this?

: Fellow list members you can see that Yuri's response to my citation of a
: variety of serious sources is to repeat a mantra of "everyone but me is
: ignorant, or outdated, or a knave, or is part of the great archaeological
: conspiracy, etc."

Dear Bernard,

Well, I posted some recent research that seems to go contrary to what
you've been saying. Did I repeat any "mantras"?

: There is no way to ever settle a question if rather
: than presenting credible opposite evidence one resorts to rethorical
: evasions.

You've made some broad claims based on rather dated sources. Do you think
my source was not credible? I have others, too, you know...

: It is also interesting that when I caught Yuri chiding me for ignoring a
: recent reference (Kelley 1995)

This is not quite correct, Bernard. I did not "chide you for ignoring" 
this reference. I simply offered this reference for you to comment upon. 
Obviously Kelley just mentioned these two plants in passing, but I thought
his comment indicated that he believes _currently_ that there is some
validity to the claims that they were precolumbian in America. Kelley did
not cite any sources, true, but this was just a passing comment and he did
not make any new claims. His comment merely indicated his _opinion_ about
these claims made by Sertima.

: when in fact the only source for Kelley's
: (and Yuri's) clam of pre-columbian bananas was not 1995, 1976, 1921, but
: really 1880,

This is important, isn't it? Why does Kelley believe what he believes? As
far as _my_ claim of precolumbian bananas... I DIDN'T MAKE ANY. 

: his response instead of an apology

Apology? If you think I owe you an apology, please explain what should I
apologize for, and perhaps I will...

: was a demand that I prove
: that bananas were not grown here before Columbus.

No demand was made. My words are above, and here they are again:

[Yuri:]
: > Is it your opinion that bananas and yams were not grown in America before
: > Columbus? Are you sure you're right about this?

So what kind of a demand is this, Bernard? I'm merely asking you to state
your position about yams and bananas clearly. Perhaps it is I who deserve
an apology here? 

You see, I'm interested in these two plants, and before we go further,
it's necessary to clarify where we stand. I don't want this discussion to
focus on what Sertima said and what are his sources, etc., but on what is
the history of these plants in the Americas? The plants themselves are far
more interesting to me than Sertima. 

: Yuri, you have it
: wrong. It is up to people like you or Van Sertima who make claims to
: prove them.

Oh, yes, _when_ I will make a claim (none made so far) I will definitely
try to prove it! I promise.

: Furthemore, extraordinary claims require extraordinary
: evidence-- not the weak reads or hypothetical chains diffusionists rely
: on.

Well, I don't know why is it that I have to explain this thing over and
over again recently to various people who for some reason _assume_ that
Yuri is "making" all sorts of "claims" left and right with wild abandon
like there's no tomorrow? Please, please, people, try to notice that I'm
in fact _always very careful_ about making any sorts of claims! This was
in fact one of the first lessons I learned when I first joined the Usenet
long ago: NEVER make any unfounded claims when you're dealing with
controversial issues that go against mainstream opinion. OTOH, those who
defend the mainstream opinions are usually allowed this sort of luxury... 

So, Bernard, whenever you can come back to this forum, I'm ready to
continue this fascinating and revealing discussion. I hope you enjoyed it
quite as much as I did so far...

Yours,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky   | "Where there is the Tree of Knowledge, there
     -=-         | is always Paradise: so say the most ancient 
 in Toronto 	 | and the most modern serpents."  F. Nietzsche
 ----- my webpage is for now at: http://www.io.org/~yuku -----