🚀 go-pugleaf

Welcome back, Bernard.

bortiz@cms.cc.wayne.edu wrote:

	...
	
: I made a point of saying that I was
: dealing with the diffusion of plants to the New World.

And since you passed without comment my quote from a recent source
indicating that some plants diffused _from_ the Americas to the Old World,
I assume that you accept this as valid, and that thereby you now accept
that transoceanic contacts in ancient times were real. Congratulations! I
knew that as an objective scholar you would see the validity of all that
evidence...

: This is only
: significant to this thread if humans were involved which sets some time
: limits on the events.

Correct.

So now, we can continue this discussion and focus on the hypothetical
movement of plants _to_ America, since this is where your interest lies. 

	...

: Yuri is using Kelley to give a false impression that this is a source of
: new up-to-date information.

Not quite, Bernard. I gave this quote only to indicate that Kelley
_currently_ believes that there's something to the diffusion of these
plants. That perhaps they were in the Americas precolumbus. And I was
interested in your opinion about this. 

: In reality, Kelley, has absolutely no new
: information.

Correct, but _I_ may have some...

: The claim that bananas were brought by man to the New World
: before Columbus is hoary and unsupported.

Not yet, in this forum. But just wait. I have some interesting information
that bananas were precolumbian in Brazil.

: Kelley is merely citing Van
: Sertima (1976), Van Sertima, in turn, is merely copying Wiener (1922),
: Wiener�s source is  A.T. de Rochebrunne, *Botanisches Centralblatt*
: v.3,1633 (1880). Kelley is honest enough to point out that Van Sertima  is
: basing his argument on data obtained BEFORE MODERN EXCAVATION TECHNIQUES
: HAD BEEN DEVELOPED AND THAT NO SUBSEQUENT EXCAVATION HAS SUPPORTED THIS
: SUPPOSITION.

[Yuri asked Bernard before:]
: Is it your opinion that bananas and yams were not grown in America
before : Columbus? Are you sure you're right about this?

: But this is the wrong question to the wrong person. The proper question
: is:  : Yuri, is there any good evidence that is more recent than 1880
proving that : bananas were brought to the New World before Columbus? 

Yes. I will post it soon.

: Do not wave your
: arms about claiming lots of references-- cite them. Do not drag in sweet
: potatoes going to Polynesia. We were talking about diffusion of plants TO
: the New World. It is not the establishment that has to prove that
: something did not happen-- people who make extraordinary claims are the
: ones who have the burden of extraordinary proof. Lets stay with bananas
: for a while.  A paper from 1880 is not even less than ordinary evidence.
: Cite your recent evidence for bananas.

OK, Bernard, I will now state openly why I asked you this question about
yams and bananas. I asked you to clarify your position because there's an
apparent inaccuracy in Kelley. You see, I consulted some reference books
recently, and found out that a number of species of yams are NATIVE to the
Americas (and some are also native to the Old World)!

So Kelley was obviously right about yams being a precolumbian crop in
America. What he neglected to mention was that it was a specie native to
America. (This does not exclude the possibility that some varieties of
yams may have diffused with human assistance across the oceans in ancient
times.) So I was just wondering if you noticed this inaccuracy in Kelley?

Thus, people who may wish to refute Kelley (and I just did, up to a point) 
should really research this material before venturing into refutations. 
This subject matter is quite complex. 

There's one more thing I want to mention now. When talking about
hypothetical ancient Africa-America transoceanic connections, the question
of bottle gourd diffusion is very important. You mention this in the
article you co-authored in CURRENT ANTHROPOLOGY. (But this is not directly
relevant to Sertima.) 

The history of domestication of the bottle gourd (Lagenaria) is quite
interesting. It may have been the first domesticated plant ever. It may
have diffused to America with human assistance ca. 9,000 years ago. Have
you researched these theories? I read the CURRENT ANTHRO article, and you
may have dismissed the Lagenaria all too easily there. If Sertima wanted
to look for Africa connections, this is where he should have looked
(nothing to do with the Olmecs, though). Too bad he is quite 
incompetent... 

Regards,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky   | "Where there is the Tree of Knowledge, there
     -=-         | is always Paradise: so say the most ancient 
 in Toronto 	 | and the most modern serpents."  F. Nietzsche
 ----- my webpage is for now at: http://www.io.org/~yuku -----