🚀 go-pugleaf

>ST>  Do anyone seriously hold the view that "Omaha" seems
>ST>  to advocate: Animals are as important as humans
>ST>  (implying it is an equal crime to kill an animal as
>ST>   to kill a human being)?
>
>yes, sort of... If it is with out a doubt necessary to human survival as
>a species that we kill them, then it IS ok to kill animals including
>whales for survival purposes only... But we Don't NEED to KILL
>CETACEANS!! Everything that comes from them except the meat can be
>produced synthetically now!! So IT IS A CRIME TO KILL ANIMALS PERIOD IF
>THERE IS NO SUBSTATIAL REASON FOR DOING IT!!!

Hey, people are irrational beings! We do alot of things that aren't necessary.
What do we have traditions for? Religions? Norms? People smoke, they drink (I
neither smoke nor drink), drink Coca Cola, believe in astrology, kill whales etc. 
Therefore the argument of being unnecessary does not hold. I am sure that if 
alcohol were to arrive in America today, it would have been damned. But it is 
accepted because of tradition, many use it etc.. And what about abortion? How 
should we evaluate human embryos versus whales?   
    




Onar.

 

In article <1992Dec16.4259.6389@dosgate> "andrew comello" <andrew.comello@canrem.com> writes:
>Newsgroup: sci.bio
>Subject: Norway starts hunting minke whales
>
>
>ST>I am curious about how people think about the issue
>ST>of whale hunting. There is obviously a lot of emotion.
>
>Lots of emotion involved here....
>
>ST>  Do anyone believe that whales have a greater right
>ST>  to live than other hunted animals (reindeer etc.)?
>
>In my own opinion, I feel that if you placed all of the animals and
>organisms of the earth on an IQ scale, the cetaceans would run a close
>second to man... Since they have the greatest IQ besides man, It would
>be MORALLY unjust to kill them....


Really?  This sounds contentious.  I would have nominated the
chimpanzee as the runner up.  I'm not an expert but my impression is
that the chimp's intelligence has been underestimated and research
keeps revealing unsuspected abilities and complexities.

Besides their complex vocal behaviors and the relative ease of
training some species to perform some arbitrary tasks what evidence is
there that they have high IQs?  I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm
curious about their abilities.  I've read Jane Goodall's books and
know a little about chimps but haven't seen a comparable book about
whales & dolphins.

Secondly, if its wrong to kill whales, why isn't there a comparable
outcry against killing chimps & gorillas?


>


JE
--
 RM 2104, HSc Building,  Div. Neuroscience
 U. Calgary School of Medicine,  3330 Hospital Drive NW
 Calgary, Alberta       T2N 3Y4
 (403) 220 4493  (wk)

In article <92Dec23.174104.27846@acs.ucalgary.ca> edstrom@hsc.ucalgary.ca (John Edstrom) writes:
>>
>>In my own opinion, I feel that if you placed all of the animals and
>>organisms of the earth on an IQ scale, the cetaceans would run a close
>>second to man... Since they have the greatest IQ besides man, It would
>>be MORALLY unjust to kill them....

	Cetaceans  do notoriously poorly  on IQ tests,  failing   to
acheive   the  rank  an illiterate immigrant (Ignorant of the
language  and culture  of the IQ  test designer) usually   gets.

	Half  the time  the silly beasts  eat the  test papers...

>Really?  This sounds contentious.  I would have nominated the
>chimpanzee as the runner up.  I'm not an expert but my impression is
>that the chimp's intelligence has been underestimated and research
>keeps revealing unsuspected abilities and complexities.
>
>Besides their complex vocal behaviors and the relative ease of
>training some species to perform some arbitrary tasks what evidence is
>there that they have high IQs?  I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm
>curious about their abilities.  I've read Jane Goodall's books and
>know a little about chimps but haven't seen a comparable book about
>whales & dolphins.

	Alsd  see de  waals'  'Chimpanzee Politics' and 'Peacemaking
among Primates'.  I can't help but wonder how meaningful  comparing
a poorly defined attribute like intelligence is when the two  species
(whale and chimp)  compared occupy vasty different niches.

							James  Nicoll

In article <92Dec23.174104.27846@acs.ucalgary.ca> edstrom@hsc.ucalgary.ca (John Edstrom) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.4259.6389@dosgate> "andrew comello" <andrew.comello@canrem.com> writes:
>>Newsgroup: sci.bio
>>Subject: Norway starts hunting minke whales

>>In my own opinion, I feel that if you placed all of the animals and
>>organisms of the earth on an IQ scale, the cetaceans would run a close
>>second to man... Since they have the greatest IQ besides man, It would
>>be MORALLY unjust to kill them....
...
>Really?  This sounds contentious.  I would have nominated the
>chimpanzee as the runner up.  I'm not an expert but my impression is
>that the chimp's intelligence has been underestimated and research
>keeps revealing unsuspected abilities and complexities.

I have the impression that elephants are very smart -- never mind
"IQ".  Does anyone know how they compare to whales and chimps?

In article <1992Dec24.050801.12346@news.media.mit.edu> minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky) writes:
>In article <92Dec23.174104.27846@acs.ucalgary.ca> edstrom@hsc.ucalgary.ca (John Edstrom) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec16.4259.6389@dosgate> "andrew comello" <andrew.comello@canrem.com> writes:
>>>Newsgroup: sci.bio
>>>Subject: Norway starts hunting minke whales

>>>In my own opinion, I feel that if you placed all of the animals and
>>>organisms of the earth on an IQ scale, the cetaceans would run a close
>>>second to man... Since they have the greatest IQ besides man, It would
>>>be MORALLY unjust to kill them....
...
>>Really?  This sounds contentious.  I would have nominated the
>>chimpanzee as the runner up.  I'm not an expert but my impression is
>>that the chimp's intelligence has been underestimated and research
>>keeps revealing unsuspected abilities and complexities.

A couple people have already questioned "IQ" as a reasonable measure of 
anything, and I'd have to agree with them.  I think we need to define
intelligence before we figure out a way to test it.

>I have the impression that elephants are very smart -- never mind
>"IQ".  Does anyone know how they compare to whales and chimps?

Well, one indicator of something special going on in human, chimp, and
dolphin brains is self-awareness.  They tested this one by putting mirrors in
front of the animals in question, and seeing if they responded as if to 
another member of their species, or as if to an image of themself.  Humans,
chimps, and dolphins can tell it's not someone else, but as far as I know,
nothing else can.  However, there are obvious logistic problems with this
test for some species (it would take a pretty big mirror for a blue whale,
say), and no one may have gotten around to asking elephants.  My gut
feeling, for what it's worth, is that they don't have a self-awareness, but
try it yourself.  I imagine some untested animals can do it; orcas for
example.  I'm not so sure about other whales, though.

--Jonathan Dale