🚀 go-pugleaf

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:47:44 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:
>
>> Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I think they state 2 seconds actually,
>>
>>  That's your problem...  what you think with.  Donkey brains have no
>> grasp of electronics.  Senile donkey brains are even worse still.
>
>I read the standard a couple of days ago and was quoting from memory.
>
>Do YOU own any standards ?
>
>Graham
>
  One does not OWn a standard, idiot.  One COMPLIES with standards and
guidelines.

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:49:39 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>VWWall wrote:
>
>> FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:
>> > VWWall <vwall@large.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> there is no risk of
>> >> electric shock from stored charge on capacitors connected to the
>> >> mains circuit.
>> >
>> That's not even a correct quote from "an15" from which I quoted !
>>
>> Just go away little boy !!!!  It's time for a nym change anyway ! ! !
>
>That would be funny. I wonder what he'd come up with next.
>
>Graham


  Donkey killer or something similar.

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:16:41 -0800, Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com>
wrote:

>Sylvia Else wrote:
>> I've recently bought a D-Link DIR-300 wireless router. While 
>> disconnecting its power supply from it, I got a tingling sensation when 
>> I touched the plug (to be clear, I'm talking about the 5V DC plug, not 
>> the mains plug).
>> 
>> An AVO meter shows about 90V AC to earth from either side of the 5V 
>> plug. Short circuit current to earth is about 0.1mA.
>> 
>> Still, I thought these things were meant to be completely isolated. Has 
>> there been a change of approach?
>> 
>> Sylvia.
>   Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher 
>supply.
>   A bit messy adding a ground line which shoud connect to the 
>transformer laminations.

  Also likely not to have a line filter incorporated at all as well.

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:18:04 -0800, Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com>
wrote:

>Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>> Sylvia Else wrote:
>> 
>>> I've recently bought a D-Link DIR-300 wireless router. While 
>>> disconnecting its power supply from it, I got a tingling sensation 
>>> when I touched the plug (to be clear, I'm talking about the 5V DC 
>>> plug, not the mains plug).
>>>
>>> An AVO meter shows about 90V AC to earth from either side of the 5V 
>>> plug. Short circuit current to earth is about 0.1mA.
>>>
>>> Still, I thought these things were meant to be completely isolated. 
>>> Has there been a change of approach?
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>> 
>> 
>> Apparently it's normal, and is related to RFI suppression.
>> 
>> Sylvia.
>   RFI? Think not; that voltage is about half the line, and is from 
>capacitave coupling from primary to secondary (if transformer type).


  Line filters both keep noise OUT of your device, and keep noise that
your device makes from getting out.  Mainly of the EMI type.

  A quote from wiki:

     A line filter may be used to attenuate EMI in either direction. For
example:
           Emissions: It may be used to reduce the unintentional
conducted emission from the equipment, to a level sufficiently low to
pass regulatory limits (such as FCC part 15). For example, in switching
power supplies.

           Immunity: It may be used to reduce the level of EMI entering
the equipment, to a level sufficiently low not to cause any undesired
behavior. For example, in equipment used in Radio Transmitter facilities.

  As soon as she said RFI I laughed, and then the donkey agreed.  I
busted a gut!

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:44:55 +0000, Eeyore
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't recall commenting on RISK personally. IEC evaluate and do that for
> >us.
>   NO RISK OF SHOCK, idiot.
>
>   You remarked about how there CAN be a shock.

Of course there can be a shock if you touch the mains pins immediately after
withdrawing the wart. As Sylvia did as a little experiment.

There's no 'make my mind up' about it. It's obvious. That's why the maximum
charge is specified ( for safety ) along with time constants to remove the
voltage by IEC.

Graham

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:

>   Make up your mind, Mr. Riskless.

The only RISK is that it might hurt a bit.

Graham

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:

> Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>   And NO person in their right mind in a free society would sympathize
> >> with Islamic Extremists, yet the retarded donkey does just that.
> >
> >I have NO sympathy with ANY religious extremist of whatever religion.
> >
> >Graham
> >
>   Oh, then it was simply a US hating thing, just like everyone pegged you
> to be.

US fundamentalist Christians do not impress me for sure. I'm less impressed
still by fundamentalist Islam by at least an order of magnitude or two.

That does NOT make ALL Muslims bad. Not in any way. In fact one of my most
trusted ex-colleages is a Muslim.

You think too much in black and white terms.

Graham

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:

>   One does not OWn a standard, idiot.

So you've never bought one. No surprise. Ever READ one ?

Graham

Sylvia Else wrote:
> I've recently bought a D-Link DIR-300 wireless router. While 
> disconnecting its power supply from it, I got a tingling sensation when 
> I touched the plug (to be clear, I'm talking about the 5V DC plug, not 
> the mains plug).
> 
> An AVO meter shows about 90V AC to earth from either side of the 5V 
> plug. Short circuit current to earth is about 0.1mA.
> 
> Still, I thought these things were meant to be completely isolated. Has 
> there been a change of approach?
> 
> Sylvia.
   Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher 
supply.
   A bit messy adding a ground line which shoud connect to the 
transformer laminations.

Sylvia Else wrote:

> Sylvia Else wrote:
> 
>> I've recently bought a D-Link DIR-300 wireless router. While 
>> disconnecting its power supply from it, I got a tingling sensation 
>> when I touched the plug (to be clear, I'm talking about the 5V DC 
>> plug, not the mains plug).
>>
>> An AVO meter shows about 90V AC to earth from either side of the 5V 
>> plug. Short circuit current to earth is about 0.1mA.
>>
>> Still, I thought these things were meant to be completely isolated. 
>> Has there been a change of approach?
>>
>> Sylvia.
> 
> 
> Apparently it's normal, and is related to RFI suppression.
> 
> Sylvia.
   RFI? Think not; that voltage is about half the line, and is from 
capacitave coupling from primary to secondary (if transformer type).

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:55:30 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:
>
>> Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >Robert Baer wrote:
>> >
>> >>    Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher
>> >> supply.
>> >
>> >You come to this conclusion how ? Measuring the weight for a given DC output
>> >would easily sort that out.
>> >
>> >Graham
>>
>>  A simple glance at the output ripple waveform will also determine if it
>> is a switcher or not. D'oh!
>
>Good Lord ! You actually said something sensible for the first time I can recall.
>
>The only snag is 'intercepting' the output conveniently to do such a thing.
>
>Graham
>
  You need an "oscilliceptor".

 There is no inconvenience in probing a simple DC plug's pins,
dingledorf.

 Bwuahahahahaha!

Robert Baer wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> 
>>
>> Robert Baer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>   Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher
>>> supply.
>>
>>
>> You come to this conclusion how ? Measuring the weight for a given DC 
>> output
>> would easily sort that out.
>>
>> Graham
>>
>   Transformers capacitively couple this "tingle" from input (primary) AC 
> voltage to the secondary.

How much capacitance would there be between the primary and secondary of 
  a lower power mains transformer?

Sylvia.

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:26:29 -0800, Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com>
wrote:

>FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:16:41 -0800, Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>
>>>>I've recently bought a D-Link DIR-300 wireless router. While 
>>>>disconnecting its power supply from it, I got a tingling sensation when 
>>>>I touched the plug (to be clear, I'm talking about the 5V DC plug, not 
>>>>the mains plug).
>>>>
>>>>An AVO meter shows about 90V AC to earth from either side of the 5V 
>>>>plug. Short circuit current to earth is about 0.1mA.
>>>>
>>>>Still, I thought these things were meant to be completely isolated. Has 
>>>>there been a change of approach?
>>>>
>>>>Sylvia.
>>>
>>>  Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher 
>>>supply.
>>>  A bit messy adding a ground line which shoud connect to the 
>>>transformer laminations.
>> 
>> 
>>   Also likely not to have a line filter incorporated at all as well.
>   AFAIK wall warts never use line filters.

 That depends on their size, and after they get too big to hang on the
outlet, they become in-line units that lie on the floor.

  ANY supply fed by a std IEC power cord has them, I can practically
guarantee it.  Nearly all of those are switchers too.

  Nearly any from a major maker like Sony does.

   Yes, most outlet hung devices do not have said filtration, and most
are not switchers either... but a few are.

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:16:41 -0800, Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Sylvia Else wrote:
>>
>>>I've recently bought a D-Link DIR-300 wireless router. While 
>>>disconnecting its power supply from it, I got a tingling sensation when 
>>>I touched the plug (to be clear, I'm talking about the 5V DC plug, not 
>>>the mains plug).
>>>
>>>An AVO meter shows about 90V AC to earth from either side of the 5V 
>>>plug. Short circuit current to earth is about 0.1mA.
>>>
>>>Still, I thought these things were meant to be completely isolated. Has 
>>>there been a change of approach?
>>>
>>>Sylvia.
>>
>>  Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher 
>>supply.
>>  A bit messy adding a ground line which shoud connect to the 
>>transformer laminations.
> 
> 
>   Also likely not to have a line filter incorporated at all as well.
   AFAIK wall warts never use line filters.

Robert Baer wrote:

>    AFAIK wall warts never use line filters.

Oh, they have to be filtered ( to meet EMC regs ) but may use some very simple
ones at very low powers since that's all that's needed.

Graham

Robert Baer wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > Robert Baer wrote:
> >
> >>   Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher
> >>supply.
> >
> > You come to this conclusion how ? Measuring the weight for a given DC output
> > would easily sort that out.
>
>    Transformers capacitively couple this "tingle" from input (primary)
> AC voltage to the secondary.
>    Determined by feel over the past 60 years.

Naturally since there will be inter-winding capacitance. I'd be surprised at 100uA
from probably no more than a 25 VA TX though.


>    Has nothing to do with output being AC or DC or output voltage or load.
>    ??weight???  Wuzzat??

Determining if it's a line frequency TX or an SMPS.

If the label says 100-240V input ( or similar ) you can also be sure it's an SMPS.

Graham

Eeyore wrote:

> 
> Robert Baer wrote:
> 
> 
>>   Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher
>>supply.
> 
> 
> You come to this conclusion how ? Measuring the weight for a given DC output
> would easily sort that out.
> 
> Graham
> 
   Transformers capacitively couple this "tingle" from input (primary) 
AC voltage to the secondary.
   Determined by feel over the past 60 years.
   Has nothing to do with output being AC or DC or output voltage or load.
   ??weight???  Wuzzat??

Robert Baer wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > Robert Baer wrote:
> >
> >>   RFI? Think not; that voltage is about half the line, and is from
> >>capacitave coupling from primary to secondary (if transformer type).
> >
> >
> > I think you need to read up on modern wall wart type switchers.
>
>    Err...read what is inside the parenthesis....

How much capacitance would you expect from say a 25VA transformer ?

Graham

Eeyore wrote:

> 
> Robert Baer wrote:
> 
> 
>>   RFI? Think not; that voltage is about half the line, and is from
>>capacitave coupling from primary to secondary (if transformer type).
> 
> 
> I think you need to read up on modern wall wart type switchers.
> 
> Graham
> 
> 
   Err...read what is inside the parenthesis....

Robert Baer wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>Eeyore wrote:
> >>
> >>>It's starting to happen in the UK too now. I'll get started on MBAs too if I'm
> >>>not careful.
> >>
> >>Master of Bugger Alls?
> >
> > Yup, those are the ones. After 15 very successful years with the same company and
> > much promotion, my sister was on Sunday looking at other job opportunities online
> > since her previously superb line boss whom she respected immensely ( but sadly
> > suddenly died unexpectedly ) was replaced by an MBA.
>
>    Moral: if you cannot do the work, get an MBA?

Something like that. It'll do wonders for your income too.

Graham

Eeyore wrote:

> 
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> 
> 
>>Eeyore wrote:
>>
>>>It's starting to happen in the UK too now. I'll get started on MBAs too if I'm
>>>not careful.
>>
>>Master of Bugger Alls?
> 
> 
> Yup, those are the ones. After 15 very successful years with the same company and
> much promotion, my sister was on Sunday looking at other job opportunities online
> since her previously superb line boss whom she respected immensely ( but sadly
> suddenly died unexpectedly ) was replaced by an MBA.
> 
> Graham
> 
   Moral: if you cannot do the work, get an MBA?

"FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor" <FunkShunPoignter@yermomma.org> wrote in
message news:emahr4duhmblpe0smd6rlk0h8apkdhg5ja@4ax.com...
>    Yes, most outlet hung devices do not have said filtration, and most
> are not switchers either... but a few are.

In fact many, if not most new manufacturer supplied plug packs are switchers
these days. The cost is now similar, with the bonus of less weight, and
usually universal supply voltage.

MrT.

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:23:13 +1100, Sylvia Else
<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:

>Robert Baer wrote:
>> Eeyore wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> Robert Baer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>   Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher
>>>> supply.
>>>
>>>
>>> You come to this conclusion how ? Measuring the weight for a given DC 
>>> output
>>> would easily sort that out.
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>   Transformers capacitively couple this "tingle" from input (primary) AC 
>> voltage to the secondary.
>
>How much capacitance would there be between the primary and secondary of 
>  a lower power mains transformer?
>
>Sylvia.

  Inter-winding capacitance varies from one transformer to another based
on the transformer construction and the winding placement, and the number
of tape layers (or paper) between the two windings.

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 06:33:08 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>Robert Baer wrote:
>
>> Eeyore wrote:
>> > Robert Baer wrote:
>> >
>> >>   RFI? Think not; that voltage is about half the line, and is from
>> >>capacitave coupling from primary to secondary (if transformer type).
>> >
>> >
>> > I think you need to read up on modern wall wart type switchers.
>>
>>    Err...read what is inside the parenthesis....
>
>How much capacitance would you expect from say a 25VA transformer ?
>
>Graham
>
  It varies with the type of transformer, and how the windings get laid
onto it, and the level of separation between them.

  Same rules for ANY capacitor, donkey.  Two "plates", which make two
area sizes, and one gap between them consisting of either polymers or
paper, or impregnated paper. A layer of windings looks like a cylindrical
plate.  Basic cap formula, physically speaking.

  This one reason why most transformers do NOT directly 'nest' the two
windings together.  Good magnetic coupling, but too much inter-winding
capacitance.

 Seperate them with transformer tape or paper, and the cap value drops
with near no loss in coupling.  Also, an isolation benefit is gained.

  And yes, you already knew this, you just are losing brain cells at too
high a rate.

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:51:54 +1100, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

>
>"FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor" <FunkShunPoignter@yermomma.org> wrote in
>message news:emahr4duhmblpe0smd6rlk0h8apkdhg5ja@4ax.com...
>>    Yes, most outlet hung devices do not have said filtration, and most
>> are not switchers either... but a few are.
>
>In fact many, if not most new manufacturer supplied plug packs are switchers
>these days. The cost is now similar, with the bonus of less weight, and
>usually universal supply voltage.
>
>MrT.
>
>

  All but the big name boys buy from an OEM supplier, and even some of
the big guys do as well.

  The small wall hung jobs only are switchers if the power need calls for
it.  If it a simple trickle charger or other such low draw device, you
will still find the old style in use. Also true if ripple figure does not
pose a problem, like in cases where the regulation circuitry is in the
device.  It is cheaper, and Chinese makers ship by the container full,
with weight only adding to cost when it is overtly different.
There are even AC 'feeders' for this purpose. Particularly since OEMers
still have tens of thousands of them on hand.

 As you know, end of year inventories do not have the same consequence
over there as it does here, so an order for 100k of something might cause
an mfg run of 140k pieces.  So there is surely a huge glut of the old
style devices still available.  Also, transformers themselves are still
very cheap, and get made in even bigger quantities on practically
unattended machines.

FatBytestard wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 06:33:08 +0000, Eeyore
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Robert Baer wrote:
>>
>>> Eeyore wrote:
>>>> Robert Baer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   RFI? Think not; that voltage is about half the line, and is from
>>>>> capacitave coupling from primary to secondary (if transformer type).
>>>>
>>>> I think you need to read up on modern wall wart type switchers.
>>>    Err...read what is inside the parenthesis....
>> How much capacitance would you expect from say a 25VA transformer ?
>>
>> Graham
>>
>   It varies with the type of transformer, and how the windings get laid
> onto it, and the level of separation between them.
> 
>   Same rules for ANY capacitor, donkey.  Two "plates", which make two
> area sizes, and one gap between them consisting of either polymers or
> paper, or impregnated paper. A layer of windings looks like a cylindrical
> plate.  Basic cap formula, physically speaking.
> 
>   This one reason why most transformers do NOT directly 'nest' the two
> windings together.  Good magnetic coupling, but too much inter-winding
> capacitance.
> 
>  Seperate them with transformer tape or paper, and the cap value drops
> with near no loss in coupling.  Also, an isolation benefit is gained.
> 
>   And yes, you already knew this, you just are losing brain cells at too
> high a rate.

The transformers I've seen that are intended to provide isolation have 
windings that are completely separate, such as this

<http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/49b8d2b804be08842740c0a87e0106ae/Product/View/M6672>

where the top winding is the secondary, and the bottom winding is the 
primary. The intent clearly being that there is no way that the two 
windings will become electrically connected.

I would not expect there to be much inter-winding capacitance.

Sylvia.

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:27:25 +1100, Sylvia Else
<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:

>FatBytestard wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 06:33:08 +0000, Eeyore
>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> Robert Baer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Eeyore wrote:
>>>>> Robert Baer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   RFI? Think not; that voltage is about half the line, and is from
>>>>>> capacitave coupling from primary to secondary (if transformer type).
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you need to read up on modern wall wart type switchers.
>>>>    Err...read what is inside the parenthesis....
>>> How much capacitance would you expect from say a 25VA transformer ?
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>   It varies with the type of transformer, and how the windings get laid
>> onto it, and the level of separation between them.
>> 
>>   Same rules for ANY capacitor, donkey.  Two "plates", which make two
>> area sizes, and one gap between them consisting of either polymers or
>> paper, or impregnated paper. A layer of windings looks like a cylindrical
>> plate.  Basic cap formula, physically speaking.
>> 
>>   This one reason why most transformers do NOT directly 'nest' the two
>> windings together.  Good magnetic coupling, but too much inter-winding
>> capacitance.
>> 
>>  Seperate them with transformer tape or paper, and the cap value drops
>> with near no loss in coupling.  Also, an isolation benefit is gained.
>> 
>>   And yes, you already knew this, you just are losing brain cells at too
>> high a rate.
>
>The transformers I've seen that are intended to provide isolation have 
>windings that are completely separate, such as this
>
><http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/49b8d2b804be08842740c0a87e0106ae/Product/View/M6672>
>
>where the top winding is the secondary, and the bottom winding is the 
>primary. The intent clearly being that there is no way that the two 
>windings will become electrically connected.
>
>I would not expect there to be much inter-winding capacitance.
>
>Sylvia.


 Seperation with fish paper (transformer paper)of a couple thousandths of
an inch, plus the mag wire insulation, plus impregnation, if any is quite
good enough, and can be a mere few thousandths total, and provide 6kV
isolation.  Transformer tape is also only a couple mils or so, and most
of these super small jobs are usually incorporating cheap elements like
paper and there usually is not large gap.

  Most are NOT made in the style you gave a link to.  Most are one
winding right on top of the other, and it makes no difference which one
is inside, and which is outside.  That has more to do with construction
ease.  That 'ease' changes as the turns ratio grows.  It is far easier to
wind a couple thousand turns of an HV transformer right on the bobbin
base to achieve nice, flat winding layers, and then add the primary onto
that.  Placing the larger wire size primary first makes for a very
'terrain' like winding layer on the small gauge secondary.

 These relatively low ratio devices though, can be found to have been
wound either way.  It is all a matter of maker preference as there is
typically no huge efficiency difference between the choices.If there is,
the most efficient method will always be utilized. With these step down
jobs, you will find most to be primary first.

Sylvia Else wrote:

> The transformers I've seen that are intended to provide isolation have
> windings that are completely separate, such as this
>
> <http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/49b8d2b804be08842740c0a87e0106ae/Product/View/M6672>

I see no tranformers there.

Graham

Eeyore wrote:
> 
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> 
>> The transformers I've seen that are intended to provide isolation have
>> windings that are completely separate, such as this
>>
>> <http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/49b8d2b804be08842740c0a87e0106ae/Product/View/M6672>
> 
> I see no tranformers there.
> 
> Graham
> 

Must be one of them new fangled websites with expiring URLS.

Put M6672 into the search box.

Sylvia.

Sylvia Else wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > Sylvia Else wrote:
> >
> >> The transformers I've seen that are intended to provide isolation have
> >> windings that are completely separate, such as this
> >>
> >> <http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/49b8d2b804be08842740c0a87e0106ae/Product/View/M6672>
> >
> > I see no tranformers there.
>
> Must be one of them new fangled websites with expiring URLS.
>
> Put M6672 into the search box.

Ah those. Yes, very common at lower powers.

Graham

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:45:33 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>> The transformers I've seen that are intended to provide isolation have
>> windings that are completely separate, such as this
>>
>> <http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/49b8d2b804be08842740c0a87e0106ae/Product/View/M6672>
>
>I see no tranformers there.
>
>Graham


 It was there before, and it was a TRANSFORMER, not a tranformer.

  Is the Donkey a T-girl?  Bwuahahahah!

  Must be a new way to SPAM folks.

"FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor" <FunkShunPoignter@yermomma.org> wrote in
message news:qgkhr4lg759p31k8hgeeb1eilemb5ib0pf@4ax.com...
> >>    Yes, most outlet hung devices do not have said filtration, and most
> >> are not switchers either... but a few are.
> >
> >In fact many, if not most new manufacturer supplied plug packs are
switchers
> >these days. The cost is now similar, with the bonus of less weight, and
> >usually universal supply voltage.
>
>   All but the big name boys buy from an OEM supplier, and even some of
> the big guys do as well.

Which has nothing to do with transformer Vs switching supply choice though.
The OEM's make both.

>   The small wall hung jobs only are switchers if the power need calls for
> it If it a simple trickle charger or other such low draw device, you
> will still find the old style in use.

Maybe, but since trickle chargers are far less comon now, that is a
shrinking market.
Your undefined claim of "most are not switchers" and "few are" is what I
dispute. It is certainly not my experience with new products.

MrT.

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 13:12:02 +1100, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

>Which has nothing to do with transformer Vs switching supply choice though.
>The OEM's make both.


  That was not the point. The point was that the bigger makers actually
spend more thought, time, and resources to make supplies that will last
longer and provide 'cleaner' power rail(s).  Those makers make their own
designs.

  Of course OEMs make both.

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 13:12:02 +1100, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

>Maybe, but since trickle chargers are far less comon now, that is a
>shrinking market.
>Your undefined claim of "most are not switchers" and "few are" is what I
>dispute. It is certainly not my experience with new products.
>
>MrT.


  The easiest way to tell is by weight.

 Can you tell if a handgun is loaded or not by the feel in your hand? If
so, you should have enough brains to make a valid declaration about what
is inside a plastic box that you hang on your outlet...  by feel as well.

 I certainly can.

Sylvia Else wrote:

> Robert Baer wrote:
> 
>> Eeyore wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Robert Baer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>   Sounds line that wall wart is a transformer rather than a switcher
>>>> supply.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You come to this conclusion how ? Measuring the weight for a given DC 
>>> output
>>> would easily sort that out.
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>   Transformers capacitively couple this "tingle" from input (primary) 
>> AC voltage to the secondary.
> 
> 
> How much capacitance would there be between the primary and secondary of 
>  a lower power mains transformer?
> 
> Sylvia.
   My guess is between 10pF and 100pF; measure it on a "free" 
transformer: between a primary wire and a secondary wire.

Eeyore wrote:

> 
> Robert Baer wrote:
> 
> 
>>   AFAIK wall warts never use line filters.
> 
> 
> Oh, they have to be filtered ( to meet EMC regs ) but may use some very simple
> ones at very low powers since that's all that's needed.
> 
> Graham
> 
> 
   I have never seen a transformer type wall wart with a filter; the 
switchers are not so common and being newer kids on the block that tend 
to generate EMC, would have some kind of filtering.

Robert Baer wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > Robert Baer wrote:
> >
> >>   AFAIK wall warts never use line filters.
> >
> > Oh, they have to be filtered ( to meet EMC regs ) but may use some very simple
> > ones at very low powers since that's all that's needed.
>
>    I have never seen a transformer type wall wart with a filter;

Just a transformer type. No indeed.


> the switchers are not so common and being newer kids on the block that tend
> to generate EMC, would have some kind of filtering.

The switchers are becoming much more common now.

Graham

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:05:02 -0800, Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com>
wrote:

>Eeyore wrote:
>
>> 
>> Robert Baer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>   AFAIK wall warts never use line filters.
>> 
>> 
>> Oh, they have to be filtered ( to meet EMC regs ) but may use some very simple
>> ones at very low powers since that's all that's needed.
>> 
>> Graham
>> 
>> 
>   I have never seen a transformer type wall wart with a filter; the 
>switchers are not so common and being newer kids on the block that tend 
>to generate EMC, would have some kind of filtering.


 Yes.  Switchers are noisy, but I would venture that these small, barely
capable types are even worse than OEM open frame or off-the-shelf types.
They actually have a few design cycles in most of them.  These El Cheapo
mini-switchers are likely the biggest source of local noise around.

"Archimedes' Lever" <OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote in message
news:2mgjr456k8ef9dlm0mr174taetf51oq6og@4ax.com...
> >Which has nothing to do with transformer Vs switching supply choice
though.
> >The OEM's make both.
>
> That was not the point. The point was that the bigger makers actually
> spend more thought, time, and resources to make supplies that will last
> longer and provide 'cleaner' power rail(s).  Those makers make their own
> designs.

And the connection with the disputed claim "most are not switchers" and "few
are" is what exactly?
And how does that affect his claim "All but the big name boys buy from an
OEM supplier, and even some of
the big guys do as well" in any case?

MrT.

"FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor" <FunkShunPoignter@yermomma.org> wrote in
message news:bqgjr4ht9851dnvkfsvno316e9mve88n2q@4ax.com...
> >Maybe, but since trickle chargers are far less comon now, that is a
> >shrinking market.
> >Your undefined claim of "most are not switchers" and "few are" is what I
> >dispute. It is certainly not my experience with new products.
>
>   The easiest way to tell is by weight.

Which I already mentioned as being one reason for switchers becoming more
prevalent now the cost differential is small.

>  Can you tell if a handgun is loaded or not by the feel in your hand? If
> so, you should have enough brains to make a valid declaration about what
> is inside a plastic box that you hang on your outlet...  by feel as well.

Which has what exactly to do with your claim "most are not switchers" and
"few are"? That is what I disputed, not some new load of total
irrelevancies.

But frankly I seriously doubt if you could tell if a handgun had one bullet
in the chamber or was empty anyway.
I'd really like to see you place it to your head, decide if it was empty,
and pull the trigger based on your guess :-)

Picking a switching power supply is childs play by comparison, but was never
in dispute.

MrT.

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:44:55 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:
>
>> VWWall <vwall@large.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> > there is no risk of electric shock from stored charge on capacitors
>> connected to the
>> > mains circuit.
>>
>>  I wonder what part of NO RISK, the retarded donkey was having trouble
>> comprehending.
>
>I don't recall commenting on RISK personally. IEC evaluate and do that for
>us.

Feh.  You irritate me here.  They evaluate existing knowledge and
experience and set standards that we may venture beyond at personal
liability risk.  Same with UL and many other safety standards.   BTW
UL standards, like many others, are being harmonised with IEC
standards.  In my lifetime i expect UL and ANSI and CSA to be no more
than the locals of standards.

>>  He does seem to have trouble with the word NO.
>>
>>   As in NO person on the planet would have anything to do with the piss
>> poor amplifier he keeps patting himself on the back about.
>
>Which of the 5 series of power amplifiers I've designed would that one be.
>The MOSFET one ? Despite its age it's due to be auditioned by some 'skilled
>mixing ears' some time soon.
>
>
>>   And NO person in their right mind in a free society would sympathize
>> with Islamic Extremists, yet the retarded donkey does just that.
>
>I have NO sympathy with ANY religious extremist of whatever religion.
>
>Graham
>

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:28:50 +1100, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

>And the connection with the disputed claim "most are not switchers" and "few
>are" is what exactly?


 "Most are not" leaves a few that would be .  One remark is not negated
by the other.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:40:11 +1100, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

>Which I already mentioned as being one reason for switchers becoming more
>prevalent now the cost differential is small.


  Why?  Because you THINK that shipping them would be that much greater?

  That difference is not offset enough by the difference in cost you
tout.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:40:11 +1100, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

>
>But frankly I seriously doubt if you could tell if a handgun had one bullet
>in the chamber or was empty anyway.
>I'd really like to see you place it to your head, decide if it was empty,
>and pull the trigger based on your guess :-)


  I would typically test such an unknown on a dope like you.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:40:11 +1100, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

>Picking a switching power supply is childs play by comparison, but was never
>in dispute.


  There was no discussion on choosing power supplies.

"Archimedes' Lever" <OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote in message
news:fj1nr49mkk7msh3ml46h5hdqk0kmef4u1j@4ax.com...
> >And the connection with the disputed claim "most are not switchers" and
"few
> >are" is what exactly?
>
>  "Most are not" leaves a few that would be .  One remark is not negated
> by the other.

Never said they did, I disputed them BOTH.
MANY are, a few are not these days.

You can argue over percentages, but unless you provide some actual figures,
your just wasting everyone's time.

MrT.

"Archimedes' Lever" <OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote in message
news:fo1nr4lm8r4vh5cl6otnaa8dl64l61dnue@4ax.com...
> >Which I already mentioned as being one reason for switchers becoming more
> >prevalent now the cost differential is small.
>
>   Why?  Because you THINK that shipping them would be that much greater?
>
>   That difference is not offset enough by the difference in cost you
> tout.

What difference in cost?

MrT.

"Archimedes' Lever" <OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote in message
news:rq1nr497r86n98j105fhvbrcge8egmeid2@4ax.com...
> >But frankly I seriously doubt if you could tell if a handgun had one
bullet
> >in the chamber or was empty anyway.
> >I'd really like to see you place it to your head, decide if it was empty,
> >and pull the trigger based on your guess :-)
>
>   I would typically test such an unknown...

I'm glad you now admit it's an unknown, just like the rest of your claim.

MrT.

"Archimedes' Lever" <OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote in message
news:vr1nr41unh18fo7il3dmrljd6uj48qg1ss@4ax.com...
> >Picking a switching power supply is childs play by comparison, but was
never
> >in dispute.
>
>   There was no discussion on choosing power supplies.

Exactly, you made an unsubstantiated claim, and I simply disputed it.
Provide some actual figures or move on.

MrT.

JosephKK wrote:

> Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor wrote:
> >> VWWall <vwall@large.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> > there is no risk of electric shock from stored charge on capacitors
> >> connected to the
> >> > mains circuit.
> >>
> >>  I wonder what part of NO RISK, the retarded donkey was having trouble
> >> comprehending.
> >
> >I don't recall commenting on RISK personally. IEC evaluate and do that for
> >us.
>
> Feh.  You irritate me here.  They evaluate existing knowledge and
> experience and set standards that we may venture beyond at personal
> liability risk.

Generally they do have good reasons for what they advise.


>  Same with UL and many other safety standards.   BTW
> UL standards, like many others, are being harmonised with IEC
> standards.  In my lifetime i expect UL and ANSI and CSA to be no more
> than the locals of standards.

It's already happened with UL1950 which is based on IEC60950. Key differences
include the use of American units instead of metric.

Graham