🚀 go-pugleaf

On 9/03/2013 12:58 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> In sci.physics jg <jg@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On 9/03/2013 10:09 AM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Heating is a very small user of electricity in most of the US; gas and
>>> fuel oil provide most of the heat.
>>>
>>> This may vary in other countries.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it does.
>
> The subject was the energy used for heating.
>

The subject is energy used. Whether it's used for cooling or heating, or 
augmented with gas or oil (who uses oil anymore to heat a house?) 
anywhere, the overall pattern of electricity use is similar.
After stating 'this is typical no matter what the area', I don't know 
why you want to argue that.


>> The one constant is that the bulk of energy demand is
>> during the day, when industry operates.
>
> No, it is not as can be seen here:
>
> http://www.caiso.com/SystemStatus.html
>
> Peak demand is after sundown.
>
> About 2/3 of the area under the curve is between noon and 1AM.
>

Whatever the significance of noon here, there is more area under the 
curve during the time solar cells operate than during your peak hours.
Outside those hours there is much less demand.

Nobody said we don't need fossil fuels anymore, just trying to use less 
for a start.

As far as any renewable energy source is concerned, it reduces total 
fuel burned if it operates at any time when it can be used.


>> Peak is irrelevant to whether solar cells contribute to energy use, it
>> would only be relevant if it was suggested as an all-round replacement
>> for energy production.
>
> That you say that says you have no clue how the grid and electrical
> generation works.
>
> A source of electricity that produces the most output when demand is low
> and none when demand is high is of little use unless that source is
> extremely cheap, and solar isn't cheap.
>

So the coal station runs flat out even when demand is low?

> <snip>
>
>> Dunno what's niche about where I live, but our cells save about $1.50 a
>> day at current raw unsubsidised rates, making $550 a year. They cost
>> $2000, so that's payback in 3-4 years. Then it's clear profit, even
>> without subsidies or local prices rising.
>
> Is the the total installed cost, including building permits or do you
> live somewhere without building codes, a requirment that a licensed
> electrician wire it up, no UL listed inverter with autocutoff from
> the grid, and you just knocked it together yourself?
>
> <snip>
>

Clutching at straws? Just google solar panel installers - no hidden 
costs, no shortcuts. That's a straight out honest assessment. That you 
don't believe it says a lot.


>> As long as there is use for the energy solar cells provide, they contribute.
>
> Not unless they provide energy at a competitive cost, which they don't.
>
> <snip>
>
>>>> Cheap was never the prime motivation for renewable energy,
>>>
>>> And there you have the essence of why it is such a loser in the market
>>> place and why energy prices at the consumer level are going through the
>>> roof.
>>>
>>
>> Does the market know this?
>
> Obviously as no one builds solar anything unless there is a subsidy
> attached to it.
>

No one used to, they weren't even widely available 20 years ago.
It's still a big outlay for something which will only repay over time, 
when household budgets are often tight.

>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaics_companies
>>
>>
>>>> but with the
>>>> price of fossil energy increasing the economics look better all the
>>>> time. Especially if you are an exporter or importer of fuel.
>>>
>>> Nope, natural gas prices are dropping, and gas is just about the only
>>> "fossil fuel" used to generate electricity unless you concider coal
>>> to be a "fossil fuel", and coal use is declining.
>>>
>>
>> Coal is not a fossil fuel?? Why is it declining?
>
> Mostly because of EPA restrictions making it cost too much.
>

Still manages to provide 45% of all electricity worldwide.


>> Gas prices might be dropping where you live, but not here.
>
> Gas prices have been dropping everywhere there is gas in the ground
> since 2008.
>
> http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/natural-gas/all/
>
>> What's more it's a valuable export.
>
> So what?
>

So when you have a lolly shop you don't eat the lollies yourself, that's 
why local gas prices and even guaranteed supply are under constant 
pressure where I live, which is a large exporter of LNG.

That, and the high cost of distribution as with any energy source.


>>>>>> Solar water heaters for instance do a better job of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Water heating is a trivial electricity consumer.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> About 1/4 of household energy use, and mostly at times when solar cells
>>>> don't operate.
>>>
>>> Not hardly unless you have some obsession about taking 6 showers a day.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.sa.gov.au/subject/Water,+energy+and+environment/Energy/Energy+efficiency/Home+energy+efficiency/How+energy+is+used+in+the+home
>
> Maybe for Australia, but in the US most water heating is done by gas and
> therefor irrelevant to electrical use.
>
> <snip arm waving about fossil fuels>
>
>
Then 1/4 of your household energy use is provided by gas, probably 
mainly outside sunshine hours.

Solar water heaters could address that where solar cells don't, though 
electric storage heaters can.