🚀 go-pugleaf

I have used my GPS on many QF flights, however I always hand my GPS to the
crew when I board and ask them if they would please check with the pilot.
About 40% of the time it is OK, the remainder of the time the crew returns
with a no answer.  One must be gracious and accept the decision.

AW


"Alf" <please.reply@to.newsgrope> wrote in message
news:please.reply-D261A7.17433005092002@news.ozemail.com.au...
> Shock horror but true story in Australia < I wasn't allowed to use my GPS
on a Qantas flight because
> the First Officer said the device wasn't approved for use even at cruising
altitude, possibly
> because it reradiated electromagnetic waves, and it wasn't approved by
Qantas's Safety Department.
>
> As my Garmin Etrex Summit showed me how far away the lake (which was more
than 100km. It's amazing
> how much visibilty there is from 39,000ft!), the Customer Service Manager
asked me what I was using.
> I told her it was a GPS device, and she could check the pilot if she
didn't believe it was OK.
> Previously, when a flight attendant queried my GPS, they either asked me
whether it was safe, I told
> them they could check with the Captain if they want, or they checked with
the Captain. They have
> always said it was OK. I was even invited into the cockpit (this was
before the WTC attacks) and the
> pilots were really nice.
>
> But on board QF591 from Cairns to Brisbane, after the Customer Service
Manager talked to the pilots
> on the phone, she told me it was not OK to use it on board. I asked her
why that is so (as the
> Captain had always approved in the past), and she told me the First
Officer himself said it wasn't
> OK. She put me onto him on the phone and I spoke to him about it. He said
while pilots use GPS as
> part of their navigation instruments, customer GPSes weren't approved and
it was the safety
> department's decision, which was out of his hands. Asked if it was due to
the terrorist attacks on
> the WTC, he said the rule has always been there. Asked as to why I had
been allowed by the Captain
> to use my GPS in previous flights, he said I "shouldn't've been allowed"
to use my GPS.
>
> He was quite nice though. He invited me into the cockpit after landing,
and said he couldn't while
> in flight because of the new federal laws about allowing passengers into
the cockpit.

Your problem is that you are assuming that logic will be used in the
decision for approval.

If nail clippers are a deadly weapon then the blunt corners of your GPS
sound decidedly lethal to me!

I think that the present security checks at airports is a joke - they are so
obsessed by pointy objects that a suspicious dude with a carbon fibre weapon
tucked in his pants would get through without a second glance.

John

In article <nnGd9.25594$g9.72329@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, "AW" <somewhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

> I have used my GPS on many QF flights, however I always hand my GPS to the
> crew when I board and ask them if they would please check with the pilot.
> About 40% of the time it is OK, the remainder of the time the crew returns
> with a no answer.  One must be gracious and accept the decision.
> 
> AW

I did accept the decision on QF591 by turning the GPS off when requested. But what's wrong with 
asking why? It's not as if I was rude or threatening or anything? I asked NICELY, why couldn't I use 
the GPS as the Captain has said yes in previous flights? And I turned it off, as requested, 
nevertheless.

Is that not being gracious?

Alf wrote in message ...
>In article <nnGd9.25594$g9.72329@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, "AW"
<somewhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> I have used my GPS on many QF flights, however I always hand my GPS to
the
>> crew when I board and ask them if they would please check with the pilot.
>> About 40% of the time it is OK, the remainder of the time the crew
returns
>> with a no answer.  One must be gracious and accept the decision.
>>
>> AW
>
>I did accept the decision on QF591 by turning the GPS off when requested.
But what's wrong with
>asking why? It's not as if I was rude or threatening or anything? I asked
NICELY, why couldn't I use
>the GPS as the Captain has said yes in previous flights? And I turned it
off, as requested,
>nevertheless.
>
>Is that not being gracious?

Well, no, it isn't.   Because the person who told you to turn it off has no
clue as to why they were told to tell you to turn it off - and further the
person that told *them* has no clue either.   So all you're doing by asking
them the reason is embarrassing them because they don't know the answer -
and they can't do anything about it - and that isn't really gracious

So if you want to use your GPS in flight, suggest you get approval from the
engineering section of that airline (on letterhead), photocopy it and send a
copy to the pointy end as a matter of courtesy.

"RT" <r.thomas@cqu.edu.au> wrote in message
news:ala7i8$c4u$1@spider.cqu.edu.au...

<snipped>
>
> So if you want to use your GPS in flight, suggest you get approval from
the
> engineering section of that airline (on letterhead), photocopy it and send
a
> copy to the pointy end as a matter of courtesy.

Fair enough but you could still get knocked back though. Captain has final
say etc....


--
"The trouble with Mr Bump was that he just couldn't
help having lots of little accidents"

>
>

r.thomas@cqu.edu.au (RT) wrote in <ala7i8$c4u$1@spider.cqu.edu.au>:

>
>Alf wrote in message ...
>>In article <nnGd9.25594$g9.72329@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, "AW"
><somewhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I have used my GPS on many QF flights, however I always hand my GPS
>>> to 
>the
>>> crew when I board and ask them if they would please check with the
>>> pilot. About 40% of the time it is OK, the remainder of the time the
>>> crew 
>returns
>>> with a no answer.  One must be gracious and accept the decision.
>>>
>>> AW
>>
>>I did accept the decision on QF591 by turning the GPS off when
>>requested. 
>But what's wrong with
>>asking why? It's not as if I was rude or threatening or anything? I
>>asked 
>NICELY, why couldn't I use
>>the GPS as the Captain has said yes in previous flights? And I turned
>>it 
>off, as requested,
>>nevertheless.
>>
>>Is that not being gracious?
>
>Well, no, it isn't.   Because the person who told you to turn it off has
>no clue as to why they were told to tell you to turn it off - and
>further the person that told *them* has no clue either.   So all you're
>doing by asking them the reason is embarrassing them because they don't
>know the answer - and they can't do anything about it - and that isn't
>really gracious 
>
>So if you want to use your GPS in flight, suggest you get approval from
>the engineering section of that airline (on letterhead), photocopy it
>and send a copy to the pointy end as a matter of courtesy.
>
>
>

And even then the captain might tell you to stick that letter where the sun 
don't shine and turn the thing off, the Captain after all is god while you 
are on his aeroplane.

-- 
Trevor Fenn
There are too many zz's in my email address above.
Take two zz's and email me in the morning.

"Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"
                          The Star Spangled Banner
                            Francis Scott Key                    

Sounds like you were a damn pain in the ass. If they asked you to turn it off, don;t go querying and
talking to flight deck crew. If every passenger had some stupid issue like that, you'd never take-off.
Put your toy away and read a book or watch a movie. Damn nutter.

Alf wrote:

> In article <nnGd9.25594$g9.72329@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, "AW" <somewhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > I have used my GPS on many QF flights, however I always hand my GPS to the
> > crew when I board and ask them if they would please check with the pilot.
> > About 40% of the time it is OK, the remainder of the time the crew returns
> > with a no answer.  One must be gracious and accept the decision.
> >
> > AW
>
> I did accept the decision on QF591 by turning the GPS off when requested. But what's wrong with
> asking why? It's not as if I was rude or threatening or anything? I asked NICELY, why couldn't I use
> the GPS as the Captain has said yes in previous flights? And I turned it off, as requested,
> nevertheless.
>
> Is that not being gracious?

Yes, I went through the metal detector at Virgin Blue (YSSY) last week... it
triggered, but the guy monitoring it was too busy assisting a problem with
another woman not wanting to give up nail clippers. I just walked on through
unchallenged.

It is about time that this airport security came under the direct management and
control of a Government authority, rather than the dodgy mob SNP Security, CHubb
etc.

John Ewing wrote:

> Your problem is that you are assuming that logic will be used in the
> decision for approval.
>
> If nail clippers are a deadly weapon then the blunt corners of your GPS
> sound decidedly lethal to me!
>
> I think that the present security checks at airports is a joke - they are so
> obsessed by pointy objects that a suspicious dude with a carbon fibre weapon
> tucked in his pants would get through without a second glance.
>
> John

Alf wrote:

> because of the new federal laws about allowing passengers into the cockpit.

Which new Federal Law?

or is it a CAR?

On Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:02:31 +1000, Thegoons <Thegoons@bigpond.com>
wrote:

>Sounds like you were a damn pain in the ass. If they asked you to turn it off, don;t go querying and
>talking to flight deck crew. If every passenger had some stupid issue like that, you'd never take-off.
>Put your toy away and read a book or watch a movie. Damn nutter.

Indeed. Do as Mummy tells you. Just like this drone probably does.
This country use to have a reputation for individuality but people
like him buried it. Authority rules eh? God you make me sick.

Anyway; I flew Quantas from Melbourne to Bangkok in Jan of
this year and true to form they were trying their best to save me
from deadly terrorists taking nail scissors on board - thank God
said I for their proper and righteous scrutiny - now I am safe!
Mind you I was a bit surprised to be given metal knives and
forks to eat my meal with - still mustn't question authority must
we? Then again I am a real rebel - I _didn't_ ask if I could use
my GPS!

Jim (from Oz)

>Alf wrote:
>
>> In article <nnGd9.25594$g9.72329@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, "AW" <somewhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I have used my GPS on many QF flights, however I always hand my GPS to the
>> > crew when I board and ask them if they would please check with the pilot.
>> > About 40% of the time it is OK, the remainder of the time the crew returns
>> > with a no answer.  One must be gracious and accept the decision.
>> >
>> > AW
>>
>> I did accept the decision on QF591 by turning the GPS off when requested. But what's wrong with
>> asking why? It's not as if I was rude or threatening or anything? I asked NICELY, why couldn't I use
>> the GPS as the Captain has said yes in previous flights? And I turned it off, as requested,
>> nevertheless.
>>
>> Is that not being gracious?
>

--
Speed doesn't kill - bad driving kills

"Jim (from Oz)" wrote:

> Anyway; I flew Quantas from Melbourne to Bangkok in Jan of
>

You lied when you said you were from Oz. You would have known it was Qantas and not Quantas. Damn yank.
Originally stood for Queensland And Northern Territory Aerial Service.


> this year and true to form they were trying their best to save me
> from deadly terrorists taking nail scissors on board - thank God
> said I for their proper and righteous scrutiny - now I am safe!
> Mind you I was a bit surprised to be given metal knives and
> forks to eat my meal with

You lied. Qantas have been using plastic ones.


> - still mustn't question authority must
> we? Then again I am a real rebel - I _didn't_ ask if I could use
> my GPS!
>

Inconsiderate goose. Endagering other people's lives to use you stupid toy. Look at the on-screen telemetry
if you must know where you are. Who knows what electromagnetic crap the oscillator in that damn
consumer-grade crap GPS unit is generating.

>

In article <3D799677.2C84A5F4@bigpond.com>, Thegoons 
<Thegoons@bigpond.com> wrote:

> Sounds like you were a damn pain in the ass. If they asked you to turn 
> it off, don;t go querying and
> talking to flight deck crew. If every passenger had some stupid issue 
> like that, you'd never take-off.
> Put your toy away and read a book or watch a movie. Damn nutter.

Toy? Pain in the arse? Every passenger had a stupid issue? DAMN 
NUTTER?!?!?!?!!!??? Well, excuuuusssse me!

Is there any need to sound like a wanker about it?

I asked previously in aus.aviation a couple of years ago about 
electronic equipment and got a couple of rude, condescending replies. 
Sounds like this is just another one.

Don't have anything helpful to say? Then pull your head in.

In article <3d79f3cf.31866238@news.tpg.com.au>, 
jimf@DELETEME.pobox.com wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:02:31 +1000, Thegoons <Thegoons@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >Sounds like you were a damn pain in the ass. If they asked you to turn 
> >it off, don;t go querying and
> >talking to flight deck crew. If every passenger had some stupid issue 
> >like that, you'd never take-off.
> >Put your toy away and read a book or watch a movie. Damn nutter.
> 
> Indeed. Do as Mummy tells you. Just like this drone probably does.
> This country use to have a reputation for individuality but people
> like him buried it. Authority rules eh? God you make me sick.

"Do as Mummy tells you"?

Grow up, mate.

> Anyway; I flew Quantas from Melbourne to Bangkok in Jan of
> this year and true to form they were trying their best to save me
> from deadly terrorists taking nail scissors on board - thank God
> said I for their proper and righteous scrutiny - now I am safe!
> Mind you I was a bit surprised to be given metal knives and
> forks to eat my meal with - still mustn't question authority must
> we? Then again I am a real rebel - I _didn't_ ask if I could use
> my GPS!
> 
> Jim (from Oz)

We're not talking about terrorism here, silly.

In article <3D7A12EA.1D0E7A65@bigpond.com>, Thegoons 
<Thegoons@bigpond.com> wrote:

(snip)
> > - still mustn't question authority must
> > we? Then again I am a real rebel - I _didn't_ ask if I could use
> > my GPS!
> >
> 
> Inconsiderate goose. Endagering other people's lives to use you stupid 
> toy. Look at the on-screen telemetry
> if you must know where you are. Who knows what electromagnetic crap the 
> oscillator in that damn
> consumer-grade crap GPS unit is generating.

1. There isn't an "on-screen telemtry" on every 767

2. I am not inconsiderate

3. Look up "toy" in the dictionary

In article <3D79977A.5A636099@bigpond.com>, Thegoons 
<Thegoons@bigpond.com> wrote:

> Alf wrote:
> 
> > because of the new federal laws about allowing passengers into the 
> > cockpit.
> 
> Which new Federal Law?
> 
> or is it a CAR?

The First Officer said it was Federal Law, and company policy, about 
cockpit visits.

On Sun, 08 Sep 2002 00:53:31 +1000, Thegoons <Thegoons@bigpond.com>
wrote:

>"Jim (from Oz)" wrote:
>
>> Anyway; I flew Quantas from Melbourne to Bangkok in Jan of
>>
>You lied when you said you were from Oz. You would have known it was Qantas and not Quantas. Damn yank.
>Originally stood for Queensland And Northern Territory Aerial Service.

What an aggressive little possum you are - Quantas was a typo.
Use some brain power and do a reverse lookup on my IP
address - I'm in Melbourne. You, however, appear to be on
another planet!

>> this year and true to form they were trying their best to save me
>> from deadly terrorists taking nail scissors on board - thank God
>> said I for their proper and righteous scrutiny - now I am safe!
>> Mind you I was a bit surprised to be given metal knives and
>> forks to eat my meal with
>
>You lied. Qantas have been using plastic ones.

What an aggressive little possum you are. They did not in
Jan of this year on Melbourne to Bangkok.

>> - still mustn't question authority must
>> we? Then again I am a real rebel - I _didn't_ ask if I could use
>> my GPS!
>>
>Inconsiderate goose. Endagering other people's lives to use you stupid toy. Look at the on-screen telemetry
>if you must know where you are. Who knows what electromagnetic crap the oscillator in that damn
>consumer-grade crap GPS unit is generating.

Well, I do for one! I design electronic products and systems
and have some experience in both aircraft electronics and
emission issues. Probably considerably more than you.

Certainly normal flight (and in reality at most other times too)
there is zilch danger of something like a GPS causing problems
with the electronics of an airliner. How much cosmic RF do you
think they are subject to at 40,000ft!? Never mind things like
lightning strikes which create huge RF fields. And, of course,
they will also fly over/near bloody great big ground based
commercial transmitters. When we design electronics to go
into an aircraft we do tend to consider these points.

btw how much RF do you think a laptop, CD player or battery
shaver (to name just a few) emit, are you required to get
permission to use those?

Never mind, you just carry on doing everything you're told,
don't question it, just obey - she'll be right mate.
God help us!

Jim (from Oz)

--
Speed doesn't kill - bad driving kills

On Sun, 08 Sep 2002 02:11:12 +1000, Alf <please.reply@to.newsgrope>
wrote:

>In article <3d79f3cf.31866238@news.tpg.com.au>, 
>jimf@DELETEME.pobox.com wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:02:31 +1000, Thegoons <Thegoons@bigpond.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >Sounds like you were a damn pain in the ass. If they asked you to turn 
>> >it off, don;t go querying and
>> >talking to flight deck crew. If every passenger had some stupid issue 
>> >like that, you'd never take-off.
>> >Put your toy away and read a book or watch a movie. Damn nutter.
>> 
>> Indeed. Do as Mummy tells you. Just like this drone probably does.
>> This country use to have a reputation for individuality but people
>> like him buried it. Authority rules eh? God you make me sick.
>
>"Do as Mummy tells you"?
>
>Grow up, mate.

I think you misunderstood me; I was referring to The Goon.

Jim (from Oz)

--
Speed doesn't kill - bad driving kills

Which is worse, an aggressive little possum, or an inconsiderate goose?

These must be animals from 'down under'.

---Bob Gross---

The confrontation I am really waiting for is when someone it is told
to turn off  a TSO'd GPS because it is a danger the aircraft
navigation systems.

For those unfamiliar, I don't know if any handheld's have been TSO'd
yet, but it is only a matter of time.  If the device has an FAA TSO,
that means it has been SPECIFICALLY APPROVED  by the FAA FOR AIRCRAFT
USE...

As I understand current regulations in Australia, the CAA accepts FAA
TSO's as valid for use on Australian Aircraft without any further
requirements...

"matt weber" <mattheww50@cox.net> wrote in message
news:lj8lnuogt6arci0i4bpqs7i79crddnaj12@4ax.com...
> The confrontation I am really waiting for is when someone it is told
> to turn off  a TSO'd GPS because it is a danger the aircraft
> navigation systems.
>
> For those unfamiliar, I don't know if any handheld's have been TSO'd
> yet, but it is only a matter of time.  If the device has an FAA TSO,
> that means it has been SPECIFICALLY APPROVED  by the FAA FOR AIRCRAFT
> USE...
>
> As I understand current regulations in Australia, the CAA accepts FAA
> TSO's as valid for use on Australian Aircraft without any further
> requirements...

And exactly what confrontation would that be Matt?

JB

On Sun, 08 Sep 2002 14:48:39 +1000, Dave Proctor
<david@spambait.proctor.net> wrote:

>Whilst undoubtedly under the effects of alcohol,
>jimf@DELETEME.pobox.com (Jim (from Oz)) wrote:
>
>
>>What an aggressive little possum you are - Quantas was a typo.
>>Use some brain power and do a reverse lookup on my IP
>>address - I'm in Melbourne.
>
>Can't always do that - where am I posting from, for example?

Who cares? But you CAN tell where I am posting from
and you could even confirm that previous posts by me
(as achieved on Google) were also made from Australia.
Of course I might have been forging posts from Oz for
the past few years in case some idiot one day on a 
newsgroup accused me of being from the USA and
I really wanted to pretend I was in Australia - Gawd....

Jim (from Oz)

--
Speed doesn't kill - bad driving kills

In article <3d7a7047.2621623@news.tpg.com.au>, 
jimf@DELETEME.pobox.com wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Sep 2002 02:11:12 +1000, Alf <please.reply@to.newsgrope>
> wrote:
> 
> >In article <3d79f3cf.31866238@news.tpg.com.au>, 
> >jimf@DELETEME.pobox.com wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:02:31 +1000, Thegoons <Thegoons@bigpond.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >> >Sounds like you were a damn pain in the ass. If they asked you to 
> >> >turn 
> >> >it off, don;t go querying and
> >> >talking to flight deck crew. If every passenger had some stupid 
> >> >issue 
> >> >like that, you'd never take-off.
> >> >Put your toy away and read a book or watch a movie. Damn nutter.
> >> 
> >> Indeed. Do as Mummy tells you. Just like this drone probably does.
> >> This country use to have a reputation for individuality but people
> >> like him buried it. Authority rules eh? God you make me sick.
> >
> >"Do as Mummy tells you"?
> >
> >Grow up, mate.
> 
> I think you misunderstood me; I was referring to The Goon.

Sorry about that. I thought you were talking to me, didn't 
know/realise you were giving this guy the sarcastic response he 
deserved.

Apologies Jim. I took the anger I had on those unhelpful trolls out on 
you by mistake.

(I hope this doesn't stray from the original subject of this 
discussion, about some pilots saying yes and some pilots saying no, to 
GPS).

The TSO relates to performance and a confirmation that the positions are
correct and that the user will be warned if the satellite data is
compromised. It also requires that the device be installed to certain
requirements and standards. A portable device can cause interference that
the installed devices dont simply due to their physical location in the
aircraft. And a TSO'd deviced used in a non standard part of the aircraft
might also cause interference that doesnt occur in the recommended cockpit
location.

Arguing the point with the cabin crew will get you nowhere, they are god's
servants when you are on the aircraft and can easily have argumentive
passengers restrained or arrested on arrival - that is the extent of their
powers (not that you would expect that from someone asking to use their
GPS - however, a passenger who was sitting beside me on a domestic flight
just the other day was met on arrival by the local police because he was
drinking his own alcohol and wouldnt hand it over to the crew). If you
disagree with the crew or captain's statements, simply put your GPS away,
its not that important an issue anyway. If you feel you have been dealt with
injustly, take it up with the airline after your flight.


"matt weber" <mattheww50@cox.net> wrote in message
news:lj8lnuogt6arci0i4bpqs7i79crddnaj12@4ax.com...
> The confrontation I am really waiting for is when someone it is told
> to turn off  a TSO'd GPS because it is a danger the aircraft
> navigation systems.
>
> For those unfamiliar, I don't know if any handheld's have been TSO'd
> yet, but it is only a matter of time.  If the device has an FAA TSO,
> that means it has been SPECIFICALLY APPROVED  by the FAA FOR AIRCRAFT
> USE...
>
> As I understand current regulations in Australia, the CAA accepts FAA
> TSO's as valid for use on Australian Aircraft without any further
> requirements...

jimf@DELETEME.pobox.com (from Oz)) wrote in
<3d7a6af8.1262574@news.tpg.com.au>: 

>Certainly normal flight (and in reality at most other times too)
>there is zilch danger of something like a GPS causing problems
>with the electronics of an airliner. How much cosmic RF do you
>think they are subject to at 40,000ft!? Never mind things like
>lightning strikes which create huge RF fields. And, of course,
>they will also fly over/near bloody great big ground based
>commercial transmitters. When we design electronics to go
>into an aircraft we do tend to consider these points.
>

Then maybe you could explain why when flying into Yalata once a month
I had to turn off the GPS (Garmin 100AVD) every time in order to be able to 
cancel sarwatch with Perth on HF 6580.


-- 
Trevor Fenn
There are too many zz's in my email address above.
Take two zz's and email me in the morning.

"Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"
                          The Star Spangled Banner
                            Francis Scott Key                    

"Trevor Fenn" <ozzzpilot@cablespeed.com> wrote in message news:928349297abc@216.168.3.40...

>
> Then maybe you could explain why when flying into Yalata once a month
> I had to turn off the GPS (Garmin 100AVD) every time in order to be able to
> cancel sarwatch with Perth on HF 6580.


More power for the HF = better range?

matt weber wrote:

>   If the device has an FAA TSO,
> that means it has been SPECIFICALLY APPROVED  by the FAA FOR AIRCRAFT
> USE...

Correct, however as a passenger, you are not using the unit for the
navigation of the aircraft, hence it is at the discretion of the captain
and/or crew as to whether you are allowed to use the device; irrespective
of whether it has a type approval from the FAA or the King of Tonga.

> As I understand current regulations in Australia, the CAA accepts FAA
> TSO's as valid for use on Australian Aircraft without any further
> requirements...

CAA no longer exists. CASA.

"Jim (from Oz)" wrote:

>
> Well, I do for one! I design electronic products and systems
> and have some experience in both aircraft electronics and
> emission issues. Probably considerably more than you.
>

I take it you are across ATSB (formerly BASI) reports of electromagnetic interference with ILS (Localizer and
Glide Path) receivers?

>
> Certainly normal flight (and in reality at most other times too)
> there is zilch danger of something like a GPS causing problems
> with the electronics of an airliner. How much cosmic RF do you
> think they are subject to at 40,000ft!? Never mind things like
> lightning strikes which create huge RF fields. And, of course,
> they will also fly over/near bloody great big ground based
> commercial transmitters. When we design electronics to go
> into an aircraft we do tend to consider these points.

What electronics did you design for airliners? Please state FAA type approval numbers etc.

> btw how much RF do you think a laptop, CD player or battery
> shaver (to name just a few) emit, are you required to get
> permission to use those?
>

The crew may also ask you to switch those off too.

>
> Never mind, you just carry on doing everything you're told,
> don't question it, just obey - she'll be right mate.
> God help us!
>

It is not "she'll be right mate". It is a matter of common sense. If you are so worried about this issue, then
why don't you put it in writing to the airline concerned - and also to CASA and Aviation Security Branch of
DoTaRS.

>
> Jim (from Oz)
>
> --
> Speed doesn't kill - bad driving kills

harro@bigpond.net.au (Ted Harrison) wrote in
<2nIe9.8458$_l1.20761@news-server.bigpond.net.au>: 

>
>"Trevor Fenn" <ozzzpilot@cablespeed.com> wrote in message
>news:928349297abc@216.168.3.40... 
>
>>
>> Then maybe you could explain why when flying into Yalata once a month
>> I had to turn off the GPS (Garmin 100AVD) every time in order to be
>> able to cancel sarwatch with Perth on HF 6580.
>
>
>More power for the HF = better range?
>
>
>
>

No actually it was a problem with noise.

-- 
Trevor Fenn
There are too many zz's in my email address above.
Take two zz's and email me in the morning.

"Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"
                          The Star Spangled Banner
                            Francis Scott Key                    

matt weber  wrote 
> For those unfamiliar, I don't know if any handheld's have been TSO'd
> yet, but it is only a matter of time.  If the device has an FAA TSO,
> that means it has been SPECIFICALLY APPROVED  by the FAA FOR AIRCRAFT
> USE...

IF...installed in accordance with the FAA Approved Supplemental
Type Certificate for that aircraft or aircraft type.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707, B-727
PanAm (retired)

On Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:42:02 -0000, ozzzpilot@cablespeed.com (Trevor
Fenn) wrote:

>jimf@DELETEME.pobox.com (from Oz)) wrote in
><3d7a6af8.1262574@news.tpg.com.au>: 
>
>>Certainly normal flight (and in reality at most other times too)
>>there is zilch danger of something like a GPS causing problems
>>with the electronics of an airliner. How much cosmic RF do you
>>think they are subject to at 40,000ft!? Never mind things like
>>lightning strikes which create huge RF fields. And, of course,
>>they will also fly over/near bloody great big ground based
>>commercial transmitters. When we design electronics to go
>>into an aircraft we do tend to consider these points.
>>
>
>Then maybe you could explain why when flying into Yalata once a month
>I had to turn off the GPS (Garmin 100AVD) every time in order to be able to 
>cancel sarwatch with Perth on HF 6580.

Nope, not a clue. Can you explain why the microcontroller
design I'm currently working on misses an interrupt from
time to time?

Jim (from Oz)


--
Speed doesn't kill - bad driving kills

On Mon, 09 Sep 2002 00:05:44 +1000, Thegoons <Thegoons@bigpond.com>
wrote:

>"Jim (from Oz)" wrote:
>>
>> Well, I do for one! I design electronic products and systems
>> and have some experience in both aircraft electronics and
>> emission issues. Probably considerably more than you.
>>
>I take it you are across ATSB (formerly BASI) reports of electromagnetic interference with ILS (Localizer and
>Glide Path) receivers?
>
>>
>> Certainly normal flight (and in reality at most other times too)
>> there is zilch danger of something like a GPS causing problems
>> with the electronics of an airliner. How much cosmic RF do you
>> think they are subject to at 40,000ft!? Never mind things like
>> lightning strikes which create huge RF fields. And, of course,
>> they will also fly over/near bloody great big ground based
>> commercial transmitters. When we design electronics to go
>> into an aircraft we do tend to consider these points.
>
>What electronics did you design for airliners? Please state FAA type approval numbers etc.

Military stuff and I'm not even going to say what country let
alone what they were.

>> btw how much RF do you think a laptop, CD player or battery
>> shaver (to name just a few) emit, are you required to get
>> permission to use those?
>>
>The crew may also ask you to switch those off too.

But they won't because they understand what a CD player is,
whereas most cabin crew would know very little (if anything) 
about a GPS.

>> Never mind, you just carry on doing everything you're told,
>> don't question it, just obey - she'll be right mate.
>> God help us!
>>
>It is not "she'll be right mate". It is a matter of common sense. If you are so worried about this issue, then
>why don't you put it in writing to the airline concerned - and also to CASA and Aviation Security Branch of
>DoTaRS.

Don't try and turn it round on me, you were the one calling the OP
a "damn pain in the ass" and "Dam nutter" because he dared to
question a decision.

btw, an apology from you for calling me a liar (twice) in your
previous post is appropriate.

Jim (from Oz)


--
Speed doesn't kill - bad driving kills

ozzzpilot@cablespeed.com (Trevor Fenn) wrote in news:92838DC45abc@
216.168.3.40:

<snip>

> No actually it was a problem with noise.

From the GPS itself or some transformer powering the GPS ? 

Trevor S

jimf@DELETEME.pobox.com (from Oz)) wrote in
<3d7c022c.19220405@news.tpg.com.au>: 

>On Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:42:02 -0000, ozzzpilot@cablespeed.com (Trevor
>Fenn) wrote:
>
>>jimf@DELETEME.pobox.com (from Oz)) wrote in
>><3d7a6af8.1262574@news.tpg.com.au>: 
>>
>>>Certainly normal flight (and in reality at most other times too)
>>>there is zilch danger of something like a GPS causing problems
>>>with the electronics of an airliner. How much cosmic RF do you
>>>think they are subject to at 40,000ft!? Never mind things like
>>>lightning strikes which create huge RF fields. And, of course,
>>>they will also fly over/near bloody great big ground based
>>>commercial transmitters. When we design electronics to go
>>>into an aircraft we do tend to consider these points.
>>>
>>
>>Then maybe you could explain why when flying into Yalata once a month
>>I had to turn off the GPS (Garmin 100AVD) every time in order to be
>>able to cancel sarwatch with Perth on HF 6580.
>
>Nope, not a clue. Can you explain why the microcontroller
>design I'm currently working on misses an interrupt from
>time to time?
>
>Jim (from Oz)

Nope, but I don't claim to be designing aircraft avionics, only trying to 
use it.

-- 
Trevor Fenn
There are too many zz's in my email address above.
Take two zz's and email me in the morning.

"Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"
                          The Star Spangled Banner
                            Francis Scott Key                    

"Jim (from Oz)" wrote:

>
>
> Military stuff and I'm not even going to say what country let
> alone what they were.
>

No problem. You remain without credentials.

> btw, an apology from you for calling me a liar (twice) in your
> previous post is appropriate.

You will get the same apology as Rod Speed gives prople. None.

bill@gates.com (Trevor S) wrote in 
<Xns9284C22D8C3A0billgatescom@130.133.1.4>:

>ozzzpilot@cablespeed.com (Trevor Fenn) wrote in news:92838DC45abc@
>216.168.3.40:
>
><snip>
>
>> No actually it was a problem with noise.
>
>From the GPS itself or some transformer powering the GPS ? 
>
>Trevor S
>
>

With the Garmin operating HF 6580 was just noisy hash which vanished the 
moment the GPS was turned off, and the GPS was running on it's internal 
battery at the time, no connection to the aircraft power.

-- 
Trevor Fenn
There are too many zz's in my email address above.
Take two zz's and email me in the morning.

"Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"
                          The Star Spangled Banner
                            Francis Scott Key                    

Trevor Fenn wrote in message <9284D1A76abc@216.168.3.40>...
>bill@gates.com (Trevor S) wrote in
><Xns9284C22D8C3A0billgatescom@130.133.1.4>:
>
>>ozzzpilot@cablespeed.com (Trevor Fenn) wrote in news:92838DC45abc@
>>216.168.3.40:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> No actually it was a problem with noise.
>>
>>From the GPS itself or some transformer powering the GPS ?
>>
>>Trevor S
>>
>>
>
>With the Garmin operating HF 6580 was just noisy hash which vanished the
>moment the GPS was turned off, and the GPS was running on it's internal
>battery at the time, no connection to the aircraft power.
>
>--
>Trevor Fenn
>There are too many zz's in my email address above.
>Take two zz's and email me in the morning.


I'd be very interested in any comment from radio techs on this one.   Are
the usual GPSs as (radio) noisy as a PC, for example?   If you're familiar
with this sort of stuff please post or email me directly, as I'm working
with GPSs  and (data) radio  coms in difficult propagation situations.

"RT" <r.thomas@cqu.edu.au> wrote in message news:alkpcg$9mr$1@spider.cqu.edu.au...
>
> Trevor Fenn wrote in message <9284D1A76abc@216.168.3.40>...
> >bill@gates.com (Trevor S) wrote in
> ><Xns9284C22D8C3A0billgatescom@130.133.1.4>:
> >
> >>ozzzpilot@cablespeed.com (Trevor Fenn) wrote in news:92838DC45abc@
> >>216.168.3.40:
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>> No actually it was a problem with noise.
> >>
> >>From the GPS itself or some transformer powering the GPS ?
> >>
> >>Trevor S
> >>
> >>
> >
> >With the Garmin operating HF 6580 was just noisy hash which vanished the
> >moment the GPS was turned off, and the GPS was running on it's internal
> >battery at the time, no connection to the aircraft power.
> >
> >--
> >Trevor Fenn
> >There are too many zz's in my email address above.
> >Take two zz's and email me in the morning.
>
>
> I'd be very interested in any comment from radio techs on this one.   Are
> the usual GPSs as (radio) noisy as a PC, for example?   If you're familiar
> with this sort of stuff please post or email me directly,

Better still, leave the rest of us in this thread in the picture ...

I apologize if I'm repeating something already said, but I'm jumping into
this mid-stream.

From what I understand, "noise" from GPS receivers comes from the oscillator
for the superheterodyne receiver, not from the power supply.  IIRC, it's in
the right frequency band to bugger up the VOR/ILS receiver.

ten B


"Ted Harrison" <harro@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:8Jmf9.16820$_l1.46733@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "RT" <r.thomas@cqu.edu.au> wrote in message
news:alkpcg$9mr$1@spider.cqu.edu.au...
> >
> > Trevor Fenn wrote in message <9284D1A76abc@216.168.3.40>...
> > >bill@gates.com (Trevor S) wrote in
> > ><Xns9284C22D8C3A0billgatescom@130.133.1.4>:
> > >
> > >>ozzzpilot@cablespeed.com (Trevor Fenn) wrote in news:92838DC45abc@
> > >>216.168.3.40:
> > >>
> > >><snip>
> > >>
> > >>> No actually it was a problem with noise.
> > >>
> > >>From the GPS itself or some transformer powering the GPS ?
> > >>
> > >>Trevor S
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >With the Garmin operating HF 6580 was just noisy hash which vanished
the
> > >moment the GPS was turned off, and the GPS was running on it's internal
> > >battery at the time, no connection to the aircraft power.
> > >
> > >--
> > >Trevor Fenn
> > >There are too many zz's in my email address above.
> > >Take two zz's and email me in the morning.
> >
> >
> > I'd be very interested in any comment from radio techs on this one.
Are
> > the usual GPSs as (radio) noisy as a PC, for example?   If you're
familiar
> > with this sort of stuff please post or email me directly,
>
> Better still, leave the rest of us in this thread in the picture ...
>
>
>
>
>