Thread View: sci.logic
2 messages
2 total messages
Started by Bill Taylor
Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:44
Absoluteness.
Author: Bill Taylor
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:44
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:44
18 lines
1158 bytes
1158 bytes
Several times I thought I have understood the technical logical term "absolute". But each time I leave the book thinking I know what it is, then the next day find I can't remember it any more. Perhaps the net folk will have more success than the text books, driving it into my thick skull. So... 1) What does it mean for a set theoretic concept to be "absolute". 2) Could you briefly outline why, in particular, "being an ordinal" is absolute, but "being a cardinal" is not (or at least "having the same cardinality" is not. 3) Does (2) have anything at all to do with the recently-noted-here fact that in ZF- it is not possible to define a cardinal, though it is to define an ordinal. Thanks. Bill Taylor. wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz
Re: Absoluteness, and numbers and sets as well.
Author: Randall Holmes
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:04
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:04
48 lines
3263 bytes
3263 bytes
It should be noted that it _is_ possible to define "cardinal number of a well-founded set" in ZF- (the usual definition without choice, relativized to the well-founded sets). This demolishes completely Zeleny's assertion that the notion of set in the usual set theory depends on the prior notion of the ordinals. ZF- certainly does not depend on the ordinals for the definition of its concept of set, but successfully defines the class of well-founded sets, which is the universe of ZF, and the class of ordinals itself. It cannot define a general concept of cardinal number, though it _can_ define the notion of two sets having the same cardinality, but it can define the notion of cardinal needed in ZF; one then restricts one's attention to the well-founded sets and one is doing ZF. One could restrict oneself further to ZFC by making the further restriction to the constructible sets. This makes it clear that the notion of cardinal number (but not the notion of having the same cardinal) in ZF depends on the notion of "well-founded set", not on the narrower notion of "ordinal". The definition of absoluteness goes as follows: let M be a transitive class (a class which contains all elements of its elements). A formula P is absolute for M if the formula is equivalent to its version with all quantifiers restricted to M, for any choice of parameters from M. Any formula in which each quantifier is restricted to a set is clearly absolute if it makes sense in M at all (because all elements of a set in M are in fact in M; if the set to which the quantifier is restricted does not exist in M, the formula doesn't make sense in M). It is possible to define "ordinal" using a restricted formula: "x is transitive and x is linearly ordered by membership" iff x is an ordinal, and every quantifier in the definition can be restricted to x itself. It is not possible to define cardinality using a restricted formula: |A| = |B| if there is a bijection f from A to B; the problem is that the transitive class M might not contain any witness f to this fact, so, relative to M, A and B might have different cardinalities due to the fact that no witness f to their equinumerousness is in M (it would not be the case that there was a bijection f _in M_ from A to B). The non-definability of the cardinal numbers in ZF- is a different kind of problem. Equinumerousness (having the same cardinal) is perfectly definable in ZF-; the problem is that it is impossible to pick a canonical set to represent each cardinality in ZF-. -- The opinions expressed | --Sincerely, above are not the "official" | M. Randall Holmes opinions of any person | Math. Dept., Boise State Univ. or institution. | holmes@opal.idbsu.edu
Thread Navigation
This is a paginated view of messages in the thread with full content displayed inline.
Messages are displayed in chronological order, with the original post highlighted in green.
Use pagination controls to navigate through all messages in large threads.
Back to All Threads