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5 total messages Started by Edward J. Huff Thu, 03 Sep 1992 01:11
How many samples?
#264
Author: Edward J. Huff
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1992 01:11
39 lines
2511 bytes
I am involved in development of a new measurement technique and am planning
to do some statistical analysis.  Will the statistics experts out there
please tell me if I am making any serious mistakes, suggest ways to extract
more information from the data, or point me toward the proper books or
software to use?  Please send E-mail replies, I will summarize if there is
interest.  Thanks.

We measure a quantity which should be related to the mass of an object.  We
want to calculate statistics which indicate how precise the measurement is.

We have a population of objects which is about 90% pure.  We can repeat the
measurement a limited number of times on the same object.  We want to take
a sample of measurements, throw out the measurements of impurity objects,
and calculate the average and standard deviation for the pure objects. 
What critera should be used to throw out impurities?  How many samples are
needed for routine measurements?  How many samples are needed before this
question can be answered the first time?

The purity might not be known in advance.  How many measurements must be
made to conclude that either the population is not pure at all, so that a
measurement is meaningless, or that it is reasonably pure?

In a related experiment, we have a mixture of two objects of different
masses, say 40% of each, with 10% impurities.  We want to take a sample of
measurements and classify each as object A, B, or impurity, and calculate
an average and standard deviation for A and B.

When the mass of A gets close to that of B, so that the tails overlap
seriously, what is the proper way of calculating averages for the two
distributions?

If these questions are answered in some standard text, please recommend one
which is slanted toward this sort of problem.

--
Edward J. Huff   huff@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu   (212)998-8465
Keck Laboratory for Biomolecular Imaging
NYU Chemistry Deptartment, 31 Washington Place, New York NY 10003
Posted from the new Mac NewsWatcher 1.3d5
Question on ratio estimate
#265
Author: Jie Wang
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1992 03:00
33 lines
1497 bytes
Hi, there, could someone out there help me with the following
ratio estimate problem ? Any comments and/or references are
appreciated. Now the problem:

Suppose {X(i)} and {Y(i)} are i.i.d. sequences respectively, but
X(i) and Y(i) may be correlated. Let m(x) and m(y) be the expected
values of X(i) and Y(i) repectively. We would like to estimate 
	    m(x)
	R = ----. 	We know that
	    m(y)


	^      [ sum_1_to_n X(i) ] / n
	R(n) = -----------------------  
               [ sum_1_to_n Y(i) ] / n

is a consistent but biased estimator for R. Does anyone know of
any RIGOROUS treatment on the variance of this estimator ?
Particularly, I am interested in some sufficient conditions of X(i),Y(i),
that imply
                           ^
lim_n_to_infinity   n var( R(n) ) 

         E(X**2)    E(Y**2)      E(X*Y)
= R**2 { -------  + ------- - 2--------- }.
         m(x)**2    m(y)**2    m(x)*m(y)


Comments on more general nonlinear estimator are also welcome.

Thanks a lot.

--J. Wang
Re: Question on ratio estimate
#266
Author: T. Scott Thompson
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1992 04:39
86 lines
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wangj@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jie Wang ) writes:

>Hi, there, could someone out there help me with the following
>ratio estimate problem ? Any comments and/or references are
>appreciated. Now the problem:

>Suppose {X(i)} and {Y(i)} are i.i.d. sequences respectively, but
>X(i) and Y(i) may be correlated. Let m(x) and m(y) be the expected
>values of X(i) and Y(i) repectively. We would like to estimate 
>	    m(x)
>	R = ----. 	We know that
>	    m(y)


>	^      [ sum_1_to_n X(i) ] / n
>	R(n) = -----------------------  
>               [ sum_1_to_n Y(i) ] / n

>is a consistent but biased estimator for R. Does anyone know of
>any RIGOROUS treatment on the variance of this estimator ?
>Particularly, I am interested in some sufficient conditions of X(i),Y(i),
>that imply
>                           ^
>lim_n_to_infinity   n var( R(n) ) 

>         E(X**2)    E(Y**2)      E(X*Y)
>= R**2 { -------  + ------- - 2--------- }.
>         m(x)**2    m(y)**2    m(x)*m(y)

You can derive a closely related approximation using the "delta
method."  Let {Z_i} be a sequence of i.i.d. random Kx1 vectors, with
mean vector m, and finite covariance matrix V.  Let Zbar(n) be the
vector of sample means of the first n elements of the {Z_i} sequence.
Let g map K-dimensional space to J-dimensional space with J .LE. K,
and let g be continuously differentiable on a neighborhood of m with G
= g'(m).  Then by a Taylor expansion

	n^(1/2)*[ g(Zbar(n)) - g(m) ] = G*d + e

where   d = n^(1/2)[ Zbar(n) - m ]   and  e = o[ n^(-1/2)*|d| ].

By standard central limit theory d ---> Normal( 0, V ).  This in turn
implies that e --> 0 in probability and G*d ---> Normal(0,W), where

         W = G*V*transpose(G)

Thus   n^(1/2)* [ g(Zbar(n)) - g(m) ] ---> Normal(0,W).

To apply this to your problem let K = 2, J = 1 and set 
Z_i = (X_i,Y_i).  Set

	g(z) = z(1) / z(2)  so that G = [ 1 / m(y),  -m(x)/m(y)^2 ].

[Implicitly m(y) != 0.]  Then

     W = Var(X)/m(Y)^2 + Var(Y)*m(x)^2/m(y)^4 - 2*Cov(X,Y)*m(x)/m(y)^3

       = R^2 * [ Var(X)/m(x)^2 + Var(Y)/m(y)^2 - 2*Cov(X,Y)/(m(x)*m(y)) ]

which coincides (almost) with your formula.  (You incorrectly used the
absolute second moments of X and Y instead of the variances and
covariances.)

Applying the preceeding argument gives:

                      ^
(*)        n^(1/2)* [ R(n) - R ] ---> Normal( 0, W ) in distribution

as n -> infinity.  Most likely this is the result that you really
want.  It is all that is needed for construction of an asymptotically
valid confidence interval or test statistic, for example.

The result that you asked for, namely

                   ^
            n Var( R(n) ) ---> W  as n -> infinity

does not follow from (*) unless you make stronger assumptions.  Indeed
(*) will be true in cases where the variance of your estimator does
not exist for any value of n.

I have said enough.  Who wants to fill in the rest?
--
T. Scott Thompson              email:  thompson@atlas.socsci.umn.edu
Department of Economics        phone:  (612) 625-0119
University of Minnesota        fax:    (612) 624-0209
Re: Question on ratio estimate
#283
Author: Michael P. Perrone
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 20:37
15 lines
922 bytes
T. Scott Thompson writes:
>To apply this to your problem let K = 2, J = 1 and set 
>Z_i = (X_i,Y_i).  Set
>
>	g(z) = z(1) / z(2)  so that G = [ 1 / m(y),  -m(x)/m(y)^2 ].

but i thought that z(1) and z(2) may be correlated
thus the i.i.d. assumption may be bad in general.

if the z(1) and z(2) are i.i.d. then
g(z) approaches a lorentzian distribution as n --> infinity
since the z(1) and z(2) both approach gaussian distributions.


- Michael
Re: Question on ratio estimate
#285
Author: T. Scott Thompson
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1992 19:16
22 lines
1582 bytes
mpp@cs.brown.edu (Michael P. Perrone) writes:

>T. Scott Thompson writes:
>>To apply this to your problem let K = 2, J = 1 and set 
>>Z_i = (X_i,Y_i).  Set
>>
>>	g(z) = z(1) / z(2)  so that G = [ 1 / m(y),  -m(x)/m(y)^2 ].

>but i thought that z(1) and z(2) may be correlated
>thus the i.i.d. assumption may be bad in general.

You misunderstood my assumption.  I was assuming that the _vectors_
Z_i are i.i.d.  This does not mean that Z_i(1) and Z_i(2) are
independent from each other, nor that they are identically
distributed.  It means that the vector Z_i is independent from Z_j and
that these vectors have the same distribution for i != j.  (And
likewise for any finite collection of indices.)

--
T. Scott Thompson              email:  thompson@atlas.socsci.umn.edu
Department of Economics        phone:  (612) 625-0119
University of Minnesota        fax:    (612) 624-0209
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