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From Steven.Schultz <Steven.Schultz@mixcom.mixcom.com>

In <C1F6tA.KF6@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Christopher John Arnold <gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu> writes:

>First of all, does anyone have any idea if Harpoons have
>been mounted on navy helos?

No helicopters carry Harpoon. 

-- 
Steve Schultz     Steven.Schultz@mixcom.com

From Dan Sorenson <viking@iastate.edu>

Christopher John Arnold <gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu> writes:

>I've been trying to figure out how two O.H.Perry class frigates
>and a Ticonderoga Cruiser would defend against two soviet
>Kirov Class cruiser. Any suggestions?

	From when I played NAVTAG, the Soviet strategy was "He who
shoots the most first wins."  The USA strategy was "If we survive,
we can sink that empty boat with any gun we have."

	In short, the USSR seems to have this one unless your defense
is better than the computer simulations say is likely.  The best bet
is speed, AEGIS, and a Phalanx or similar with plenty of ammunition.
If you survive and are mobile, you win.  If you don't/aren't, you lose.

	BTW: I am not saying NAVTAG is particularly relevant.  We did
a simulation of a Kirov-class vs an Iowa-class.  The Iowa won because
it was able to hit the Kirov with 16" shells while the Kirov had shot
its load and made life miserable, but not impossible, for the Iowa.  I
would not trust this simulation if *I* were on either ship.

	Getting back to your question, the best bet for the USA forces
is to shoot when they detect inbounds, defend as best they can, and
chase down the Soviet ships with the survivors.  The two philosophies
are interesting to contemplate with regards to present threats.  For
all the media plays up the demise of the USSR and the reduced threat,
it seems our system is much more likely to work against a small country
than the xUSSR's system would given political limitations.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >

From Chad Barret Wemyss <chadwemy@wpi.wpi.edu>

In article <C1F6tA.KF6@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher John Arnold) writes:
>
>First of all, does anyone have any idea if Harpoons have
>been mounted on navy helos?
>
>And are there any good books of us naval tactics out there?
>I've been trying to figure out how two O.H.Perry class frigates
>and a Ticonderoga Cruiser would defend against two soviet
>Kirov Class cruiser. Any suggestions?
>
>-Gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu

First, I've seen pictures of Sea Eagles (British anti-ship missiles, with a 
similar configuration and performance to the Harpoon) mounted on both Lynx ASW 
helos and on the EH-101 prototypes.  I cant think of any good reason a Seahawk 
couldnt carry a Harpoon instead of its Mk46 torpedo.  They are both about the 
same weight and size, and the Seahawk has all the avionics for the missile; one
of its major roles would be midcourse guidance updates for over-the-horizon 
shots with both Harpoon and Tomahawk.

Second, I would be very surprised if two Kirovs ever deployed together.  They 
are very powerful, expensive ships, and all three (four?) of the class have an 
integral flagship capability.  This means that they would deploy as the leaders
of a task force, with many excorts (Udaloys, Sovremennyys, and Krivaks).  Think
about how often we deploy two carriers in one task force.  While two carrier 
task forces might operate together, they are still usually hundreds of miles 
apart to reduce vulnerability.  

However, with the advent of the new Russian carrier, the Kirovs could be a 
prime escort, much the same as the Tico class are to the US Navy.

Chad Wemyss
Worcester Polytechnic Institute

From "Ted Kim (Random Dude" <tek@ficus.cs.ucla.edu>

In article <C1H2zp.F98@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Chad Barret Wemyss <chadwemy@wpi.wpi.edu> writes:
>I cant think of any good reason a Seahawk couldnt carry a Harpoon
>instead of its Mk46 torpedo.

I think possibly I saw one picture with of a Seahawk flight test with
a Harpoon strapped on, but that is as far as it ever went. Currently,
there are no plans to carry Harpoon on the SH-60. The USN is instead
equipping a total of 166 SH-60Bs to carry the AGM-119B Penguin. In the
Navy's opnion, however, the Penguin is too expensive and only 106 will
be bought. In the meantime, the Navy is looking for something cheaper.

-ted

-- 
Ted Kim                           Internet: tek@ficus.cs.ucla.edu
UCLA Computer Science Department  UUCP:     ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek
3680A Boelter Hall                Phone:    (310) 825-8524
Los Angeles, CA 90024             FAX:      (310) 825-2273

From bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au


>
>
> First of all, does anyone have any idea if Harpoons have
> been mounted on navy helos?
>

        I have a book called Modern Helicopter Combat (Tiger Press)
which notes that the Sea Cobra (a version of the Cobra attack helo
and used by the US Marines) is capable of carrying 2 Harpoon missiles.
The most probable use of such an arrangement would be from a heavy
assault ship such as a Tarawa or Wasp, where there aren't enough
planes to provide "over the horizon" anti-ship strike capability.

> I've been trying to figure out how two O.H.Perry class frigates
> and a Ticonderoga Cruiser would defend against two soviet
> Kirov Class cruiser. Any suggestions?
>

        I don't like your chances. Unless your Tico is carrying
lots of anti-ship Tomohawk missiles (T-ASM's), two Kirovs simply
have too much self defence capability. You'd need to get all your
missiles off in an overwhelming attack wave, and even then the
Kirovs would still have a very good chance of surviving. (I'm
making this comment in regard to "Harpoon", not regarding a real
life situation.)

        While I'm at it, can anyone give me a phone number,
address (or even email address) for the US Naval Institute?

I'm particularly interested in reference books they might
publish. I have a rather good ship reference called "The
Encyclopedia of World Sea Power", but it's getting out of
date and hasn't been updated since 1989, and I can't justify
$400 for a copy of Janes Fighting Ships.


           Bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au  OR  bull@monu1.cc.monash.oz
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