🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <3@.UUCP> mickey@.UUCP (Michael Thompson) writes:
>Many times I have woken because of a thunder clap, or a door slamming,
>and realized that I had been dreaming a dream where a thunderous clap
>would have been totally logical. For example, I had a dream where I 
>was in a bank while it was being held up. I saw a robber aim a gun
>at a hostage and shoot. The clap I heard was the result of a door
>(in real life) being slammed in the appartment next door.
>
>Question: When one hears sounds during sleep, and this type of dream
>occurs, does the brain, in an attempt to explain the sound, create an
>entire (perhaps quite complex) dream sequence? Or does it ~alter~
>the current sequence so that the external sound ~fits~ into it? If
>the latter is true, does it not have to create or alter memories of 
>earlier parts of the sequence to support the alteration?
>
>					-mickey
>					Michael Thompson
>					...ihnp4!sun!altos86!mickey


I know exactly what you mean.  

Of course, there's nothing unusual with external stimuli influencing
dreams, since we're still aware of our surroundings to some extent
even when asleep.  The sounds from a TV or the fact that an arm has
"fallen asleep" because of blood supply being cut down due to a bad
sleeping position can certainly influence dreams.

However, the puzzling thing is when a dream is influenced by a
~single, instantaneous~ event like a door slamming, especially when
the event actually causes you to wake up and recognize it.

This has happened to me, and yet, as described by Michael Thompson,
the event fit logically into the previous action of the dream.

Since it's a bit hard to accept that a dream could anticipate an external
event, the only sensible explanation seems to be that the entire dream
sequence is manufactured after the event.  This would seem to indicate
i) time in dreams does not proceed at the same rate as real time, since
   the dream may appear to last several minutes, but would have to in
   fact be manufactured as a whole in the instant between the door slamming
   and you waking up to hear the noise still ringing in your ears
ii) dreams must play tricks on your memory, since you so clearly remember
   the previous action of the dream as having taken place before the
   door slamming (and its counterpart event within the dream)

Gordan Palameta    Usenet:  {!seismo, !utzoo} !mnetor!genat!maccs!gordan
 

Another possibility as far as the door slam/gunshot in a dream is
concerned, besides the dream being manufactured instantaneously, is
this: a gunshot is a surprising or startling thing. If there was a
door slam, it would also be unexpected, and this would be consistent.
At least in my case, I never wake up instantly, so the dream has a
chance to "wrap up" before I really gain consciousness (though I 
realize that most people sleep more lightly than me). It may be that
although you thought that you anticipated the gunshot, it may have
actually been a surprise in the dream, albeit one that fit the scenario
and was thus incorporated as a surprise. Given the circumstances, it's
quite easy to believe that you remembered the dream slightly wrong,
and the gunshot was a surprise. If the "bang" had not fit the scenario,
you probably would have just woken up and ignored the dream, so there
is a bit of coincidence involved here.

I know what you mean, though. Many times I have turned off my alarm
clock, turned on the radio, stumbled back to bed and drifted to sleep.
News reports in particular make for very odd dreams. Unfortunately, this
gives me a bizarre view of current events, because I'm never sure what
I really heard on the news and what my mind made up.

                                     Jean-Joseph Cote

It must be kept in mind that we probably experience hundreds of events
where we are woken up by a noise that DIDN'T fit into the dream.

If, on a rare occasion, we are in a dream which allows the noise
to be incorporated, then we will tend to notice that much
more than those cases were the noise cannot be incorporated.

Similarly, we will not notice those dreams where an external noise
could be incorporated, but which doesn't occur.

"Chance favors the prepared mind."

ftg

In article <7276@gatech.EDU> ftg@gatech.EDU (Gary Peterson) writes:
>
>It must be kept in mind that we probably experience hundreds of events
>where we are woken up by a noise that DIDN'T fit into the dream.
>
>If, on a rare occasion, we are in a dream which allows the noise
>to be incorporated, then we will tend to notice that much
>more than those cases were the noise cannot be incorporated.
>
>Similarly, we will not notice those dreams where an external noise
>could be incorporated, but which doesn't occur.

I have had this experience: I am dreaming and a noise intrudes upon 
the dream.  My mind attempts to incorporate the noise into the
dream, but it causes an incongruous situation (within the dream).
This was sufficient to awaken me (if I didn't awaken I wouldn't
remember the dream).  Sorry I can't give any details of the dream
but I can't remember them.



 Dan Tilque				dant@tekla.tek.com

People might be interested to know that Freud based his theory on the 
interpretation of dreams on just the sort of thing being discussed here.
The reasoning goes something like this:

Suppose the function of the mechanism which attempts to relate external
stimuli to dream content, is simply to explain such things in such a way that
the tendency to arouse is mitigated, and the state of sleep protected.
If our minds are still, to some limited extent, active during sleep,
mulling over the events of our waking lives, maybe some of the realisations
which are bubbling under, would be too much for us (vis Oedipus etc), so
the dream mechanism explains away such internal stimuli as well. So
to know what is bothering someone, all you need is an enlightened analysis
of their dreams. Once the problem has been faced up to, in the waking
state, it is no longer supressed (relegated to the subconscious, or, I
would say, combination semi-conscious/memory rejecting thing) and so 
pathological symptoms should subside.

This is an incredibly crude account of something which Freud took at least
one whole book ('On the Interpretation of Dreams') to explain. It may be
dubious in many ways, but I think it's interesting. 

'My employers know nothing about this.'

-- 
Robin Faichney

UUCP:  ...mcvax!ukc!rjf             Post: RJ Faichney,
                                          Computing Laboratory,
JANET: rjf@uk.ac.ukc                      The University,
                                          Canterbury,
Phone: 0227 66822 Ext 7681                Kent.
                                          CT2 7NF

In both of the original examples (thunderclap, door slam) there were
potentially at least a few seconds of warning (lightning flash, footsteps).

Even the famous example of someone during the French Revolution whose
headboard fell on him just as he dreamed of being guillutined [sp] might
be explained this way (e.g. creaking as the headboard was about to
break), though Freud explained it as a subconcious fantasy brought to
the surface by the falling headboard.

There are many things that have been incorporated into my dreams at
times that show that some part of me is still keenly aware of my
surroundings.

		-Ed Hall
		decvax!randvax!edhall

In this discussion one must keep in mind that 

1)	Dreams don't happen during all kinds of sleep
2)	Dream time is unrelated to real time
3)	Dreams appear to be an attempt to resolve anomolous thoughts that
	become activated during REM sleep.

The best information that I have on sleep research indicates that dreams are
almost instantaneous but that they repeat in bursts.  The dream about the
bank robbery was almost certainly caused by the slamming door and happened
so quickly that the dreamer's perception was that it happened during the dream
rather than before it.  During REM sleep, the period during which we dream,
the mind seems to be in some other time zone, as it were.  The best analogy 
might be that your mind is in fourier space during REM sleep.

-- 
John Cornelius
(...!sdcsvax!piaget!jc)