Article View: sci.physics.relativity
Article #271Re: Special Relativity - the Full Story
From: Pentcho Valev
Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:51
Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:51
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10367 bytes
On Jan 2, 8:05 pm, Tom Roberts <tjroberts...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in sci.physics.relativity: > This shows that light's one-way vacuum speed _IS_ c in these many different > frames. It does not really show "how" that happens, but in SR that is well > known: measuring instruments at rest in different frames are oriented > differently in spacetime, such that each frame measures c for the vacuum speed > of light -- that is "how" this is explained in SR. > > Stated differently: the three elementary aspects of SR, "length contraction", > "time dilation", and "relativity of simultaneity", are all interrelated and work > together to make the vacuum speed of light be c in every inertial frame. > > Tom Roberts Honest Roberts, You are a modest person (geniuses are modest) but I am going to glorify your contributions that made special relativity absolute and eternal. According to Tom Honest Roberts, even if "light in vacuum does not travel at the invariant speed of the Lorentz transform", Divine Albert's Divine Special Relativity "would be unaffected" and "today's foundations of modern physics would not be threatened": http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/dc1ebdf49c012de2 Tom Roberts: "If it is ultimately discovered that the photon has a nonzero mass (i.e. light in vacuum does not travel at the invariant speed of the Lorentz transform), SR would be unaffected but both Maxwell's equations and QED would be refuted (or rather, their domains of applicability would be reduced)." http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.research/msg/44d3ebf3b94d89ad Tom Roberts: "As I said before, Special Relativity would not be affected by a non-zero photon mass, as Einstein's second postulate is not required in a modern derivation (using group theory one obtains three related theories, two of which are solidly refuted experimentally and the third is SR). So today's foundations of modern physics would not be threatened." Tom Honest Roberts' collaborators: http://o.castera.free.fr/pdf/bup.pdf Jean-Marc LÉVY-LEBLOND: "Maintenant il s'agit de savoir si le photon a vraiment une masse nulle. Pour un physicien, il est absolument impossible d'affirmer qu'une grandeur, quelle qu'elle soit, a rigoureusement la valeur zéro, pas plus d'ailleurs que n'importe quelle autre valeur. Tout ce que je sais de la masse du photon, c'est ce que disent mes collègues expérimentateurs : "Elle est très faible ! Inférieure, selon nos mesures actuelles, à 10^(-50)kg". Mais si demain, on découvre que cette masse est non-nulle, alors, le photon ne va pas à la vitesse de la lumière... Certes, il irait presque toujours à une vitesse tellement proche de la vitesse limite que nous ne verrions que difficilement la différence, mais conceptuellement, il pourrait exister des photons immobiles, et la différence est essentielle. Or, nous ne saurons évidemment jamais si la masse est rigoureusement nulle ; nous pourrons diminuer la borne supérieure, mais jamais l'annuler. Acceptons donc l'idée que la masse du photon est nulle, et que les photons vont à la vitesse limite, mais n'oublions pas que ce n'est pas une nécessité. Cela est important pour la raison suivante. Supposez que demain un expérimentateur soit capable de vraiment mettre la main sur le photon, et de dire qu'il n'a pas une masse nulle. Qu'il a une masse de, mettons 10^(-60)kg. Sa masse n'est pas nulle, et du coup la lumière ne va plus à la "vitesse de la lumière". Vous pouvez imaginer les gros titres dans les journaux : "La théorie de la relativité s'effondre", "Einstein s'est trompé", etc. Or cette éventuelle observation ne serait en rien contradictoire avec la théorie de la relativité ! Einstein a certe construit sa théorie en analysant des échanges de signaux lumineux propagés à la vitesse limite. Si on trouve que le photon a une masse non-nulle, ce sera que cette vitesse n'est pas la vitesse limite, et la démonstration initiale s'effondre donc. Mais ce n'est pas parce qu'une démonstration est erronée que son résultat est faux ! Quand vous avez une table à plusieurs pieds, vous pouvez en couper un, elle continue à tenir debout. Et heureusement, la théorie de la relativité a plusieurs pieds." http://o.castera.free.fr/pdf/Chronogeometrie.pdf Jean-Marc Lévy-Leblond "De la relativité à la chronogéométrie ou: Pour en finir avec le "second postulat" et autres fossiles": "D'autre part, nous savons aujourd'hui que l'invariance de la vitesse de la lumière est une conséquence de la nullité de la masse du photon. Mais, empiriquement, cette masse, aussi faible soit son actuelle borne supérieure expérimentale, ne peut et ne pourra jamais être considérée avec certitude comme rigoureusement nulle. Il se pourrait même que de futures mesures mettent en évidence une masse infime, mais non-nulle, du photon ; la lumière alors n'irait plus à la "vitesse de la lumière", ou, plus précisément, la vitesse de la lumière, désormais variable, ne s'identifierait plus à la vitesse limite invariante. Les procédures opérationnelles mises en jeu par le "second postulat" deviendraient caduques ipso facto. La théorie elle-même en serait-elle invalidée ? Heureusement, il n'en est rien ; mais, pour s'en assurer, il convient de la refonder sur des bases plus solides, et d'ailleurs plus économiques. En vérité, le premier postulat suffit, à la condition de l'exploiter à fond." http://www.hep.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/mechanics/levy-leblond_ajp_44_271_76.pdf Jean-Marc Levy-Leblond: "This is the point of view from wich I intend to criticize the overemphasized role of the speed of light in the foundations of the special relativity, and to propose an approach to these foundations that dispenses with the hypothesis of the invariance of c. (...) We believe that special relativity at the present time stands as a universal theory discribing the structure of a common space-time arena in which all fundamental processes take place. (...) The evidence of the nonzero mass of the photon would not, as such, shake in any way the validity of the special relalivity. It would, however, nullify all its derivations which are based on the invariance of the photon velocity." http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026801.500-why-einstein-was-wrong-about-relativity.html Why Einstein was wrong about relativity 29 October 2008, Mark Buchanan, NEW SCIENTIST "This "second postulate" is the source of all Einstein's eccentric physics of shrinking space and haywire clocks. And with a little further thought, it leads to the equivalence of mass and energy embodied in the iconic equation E = mc2. The argument is not about the physics, which countless experiments have confirmed. It is about whether we can reach the same conclusions without hoisting light onto its highly irregular pedestal. (...) But in fact, says Feigenbaum, both Galileo and Einstein missed a surprising subtlety in the maths - one that renders Einstein's second postulate superfluous. (...) The idea that Einstein's relativity has nothing to do with light could actually come in rather handy. For one thing, it rules out a nasty shock if anyone were ever to prove that photons, the particles of light, have mass. We know that the photon's mass is very small - less than 10^(-49) grams. A photon with any mass at all would imply that our understanding of electricity and magnetism is wrong, and that electric charge might not be conserved. That would be problem enough, but a massive photon would also spell deep trouble for the second postulate, as a photon with mass would not necessarily always travel at the same speed. Feigenbaum's work shows how, contrary to many physicists' beliefs, this need not be a problem for relativity." http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0806/0806.1234v1.pdf Mitchell J. Feigenbaum: "In this paper, not only do I show that the constant speed of light is unnecessary for the construction of the theories of relativity, but overwhelmingly more, there is no room for it in the theory. (...) We can make a few guesses. There is a "villain" in the story, who, of course, is Newton." Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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From: Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity,sci.physics,sci.astro,fr.sci.physique,fr.sci.astrophysique
Subject: Re: Special Relativity - the Full Story
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:51:04 -0800 (PST)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
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