Article View: sci.physics
Article #13717Re: Does God need to prove He exists?
From: Ben Dolan
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:00
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:00
49 lines
4727 bytes
4727 bytes
The Loan Arranger <noone@nowhere.invalid> wrote: > Ben Dolan wrote: > > rbwinn <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote: > > > >>>> According to scripture unless a prayer is asked in faith it will not > >>>> be answered. > >>>> Robert B. Winn > >>> And according to empirical evidence, a prayer asked in faith will not be > >>> answered either. > >> What do you call empirical evidence? > >> Robert B. Winn > > > > You hang out in physics newsgroups and you don't know what empirical > > evidence is? I'm talking about peer reviewed, double-blind studies on > > the efficacy--or more precisely, the complete lack of efficacy--of > > prayer. > > I hate to mention it, but have you read `The Efficacy of "Distant > Healing"' (Annals of Internal Medicine, 2000, 132/11 pp.903-910)? > > It was a study of peer-reviewed studies (mostly double-blind) into a > range of healing methods, including "healing touch" and intercessionary > prayer. Although it ruled that a number of the trials suffered from poor > protocols or inherent bias, it did conclude that a majority showed > statistically significant treatment effects, including trials considered > well structured and conducted. > > The article had a good range of grant fundings, including the Wellcome > Trust, the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine > and the National Institutes of Health. > > One of the more interesting conclusions, by the way, is that although > Christian prayer appeared somewhat efficacious, a number of other > methods, some Pagan, some atheist (in the sense of having no worship > element), worked equally well or better. And the results of that study have been largely ignored because of the lack of reproducibility of any of the component studies, and because of flaws in the studies' methodologies. There have been many attempts to identify efficacy relationship between prayer and healing, and obviously, many desparately want it to be true, but non-reproducibility is its Achilles heel. The most recent results by Harvard's Herbert Benson et al (American Heart Journal, April 2006) shows no correlation whatsoever. In fact, it concluded that "certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications", which is a startling statement about the claimed benefits of superstitious beliefs.
Technical Details
Message-ID:
<1ijr3yp.ypkc3ynj55c7N%ben_dolan_III@reet.com>Path:
arc1-ca.pugleaf.net!g2news1.google.com!news1.google.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local02.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mailReferences:
<14203dca-5554-4b53-a802-d10de1074c27@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <2efb0043-fcce-424b-9881-40b9bc0edb23@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> <j06s64huujceqj25r4v5hpd2ns0jctqdq7@4ax.com> <1edcc73f-c01c-4bde-9b08-51aa68b4edb8@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com> <6d71u9F16r8aU1@mid.individual.net> <62956527-c824-415d-93ab-cdbf47127a02@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com> <6d929uF1ekcbU1@mid.individual.net> <e765a085-e079-4808-aa79-7244fc499d79@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> <48707b88$1@clear.net.nz> <07ba26ef-7fc8-444a-b573-c16966a1cd4e@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> <48713636$1@clear.net.nz> <54c66300-0456-4c7f-868d-c7eb35e2dd45@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> <48715d61$1@clear.net.nz> <fd2a7d5b-9b62-44f4-95f8-e0c3965357ee@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> <1ijp85w.11e8xgg1ioa3eN%ben_dolan_III@reet.com> <d0d95a9c-7f65-47e4-85f5-bbfeb18f8b35@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <1ijqb6d.11heufq1t49cszN%ben_dolan_III@reet.com> <jcedncBkNazwtO7VRVnyiwA@bt.com>Show Full Headers
Complete Article Headers
X-Google-Thread: 10b271,d932fee6d9806ab9 X-Google-Thread: 102f53,dac8026861d35fee X-Google-Thread: f442a,d932fee6d9806ab9 X-Google-Thread: 116469,d932fee6d9806ab9 X-Google-Attributes: gid10b271,gid102f53,gidf442a,gid116469,domainid0,public,usenet X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit Path: arc1-ca.pugleaf.net!g2news1.google.com!news1.google.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local02.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:00:54 -0500 Newsgroups: sci.physics,cam.misc,alt.sci.physics,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Does God need to prove He exists? From: ben_dolan_III@reet.com (Ben Dolan) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:00:54 -0700 Message-ID: <1ijr3yp.ypkc3ynj55c7N%ben_dolan_III@reet.com> References: <14203dca-5554-4b53-a802-d10de1074c27@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <2efb0043-fcce-424b-9881-40b9bc0edb23@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> <j06s64huujceqj25r4v5hpd2ns0jctqdq7@4ax.com> <1edcc73f-c01c-4bde-9b08-51aa68b4edb8@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com> <6d71u9F16r8aU1@mid.individual.net> <62956527-c824-415d-93ab-cdbf47127a02@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com> <6d929uF1ekcbU1@mid.individual.net> <e765a085-e079-4808-aa79-7244fc499d79@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> <48707b88$1@clear.net.nz> <07ba26ef-7fc8-444a-b573-c16966a1cd4e@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> <48713636$1@clear.net.nz> <54c66300-0456-4c7f-868d-c7eb35e2dd45@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> <48715d61$1@clear.net.nz> <fd2a7d5b-9b62-44f4-95f8-e0c3965357ee@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> <1ijp85w.11e8xgg1ioa3eN%ben_dolan_III@reet.com> <d0d95a9c-7f65-47e4-85f5-bbfeb18f8b35@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <1ijqb6d.11heufq1t49cszN%ben_dolan_III@reet.com> <jcedncBkNazwtO7VRVnyiwA@bt.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.8.1 (Mac OS X version 10.5.4 (PPC)) Lines: 49 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 98.207.171.71 X-Trace: sv3-9wTqq8igFD1V0hSNZpdgLqlxz8z5G1vt0VEZ/SroonE8hKvIP/wc8pYyUqR6H42NemTyMYKQ+2jiYRT!Dn3/YqGUsnStIUTx7QAHyOtMAvC+wc+yMluEuvRsAFcWljyzZmikLQ8+NGgsLPH3x0TdNqBmSMd2!1/mtwYOCL1uGzL6LZl7TAsuDdsSGSg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39