🚀 go-pugleaf

"Eric Gisse" <jowr.pi@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:87303ba1-5ad7-47a5-87e5-842267d168b0@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Max Keon wrote:

>>>> The CMBR began its journey in a VERY redshifted state and has
>>>> been progressively redshifted along the way by the expansion.
>>>>
>>>> Do you understand now why the CMBR would be almost impossible to
>>>> detect in a big bang universe ?
>>>
>>> You are a bleeding moron. The CMBR has been detected many times over
>>> the past 40 years.
>>
>> Yes, it has. But what is detected today requires that spectral
>> line frequencies generated when the CMBR was first transmitted
>> be exactly what they are when generated in today's environment.
>> That's hardly likely when the mass of the entire universe was
>> within, at most, 10000000 * 2 light years of everything.
>>
>> Can't you see that?

> Your argument would be more meaningful if you had a calculation
> supporting it. Especially if the argument wasn't that we cannot
> possibly be observing what has been routinely observed.

I routinely observe the Sun going around the Earth every day and
I can draw all kinds of conclusions from this. But when the
complete picture is taken into account, I know that the Earth is
simply revolving on its axis.

On the other hand, you can routinely observe a fairly uniform
radiation arriving from all directions, and you conclude that
this was generated at the time when the universe first became
transparent. But you have constructed a complete picture to suit
your needs. You have chosen to ignore the VERY OBVIOUS fact that
(if the initial expansion was at the speed of light), all matter
in the universe was within 300000 light years of the big bang,
or within 600000 light years of every scrap of matter that
existed, and that represents a gigantic gravity well compared
with the universe today.

Every natural oscillator is affected by every bit of matter in
the universe. If the mass of the currently visible universe is
i.e. 5e+56 kilograms, and all of that mass resided in a thin
shell at the visible extremes, at a 13 billion light year radius,
or 1.23e+26 meters, clock running speed is  t' = t/(G*M/(c^2*r))
 t' = 3.32e-4 of what it would be in a universe where only the
clock exists.

Now condense all of the matter into a similar shell in the early
universe. Even if the pre CMBR expansion was 20 times the speed
of light, the maximum radius to any part of the universe is
 2.84e+21 meters.  t' = t/(G*M/(c^2*r)):  t' = 7.664e-9 of what
it would be in an otherwise matter free universe.

That's 43300 times slower than today. Clock tick rates, _and the
oscillators which generated characteristic spectral lines_, were
already redshifted _enormously_ before they were sent off to
travel the universe.

It doesn't matter how the universe is dissected, so long as the
same conditions are applied to each, the same ratio will result.

If I didn't know what made the universe tick, I would be content
to go along with your version of a universe. But I do know.
As bizarre as it is,
 http://members.optusnet.com.au/maxkeon/the1-1a.html
is our universe.

Nothing in that universe is as it seems, and it's based entirely
on a false premise. There's not a hope in hell of knowing what
makes the universe tick by simply peering out into it in the
hope of finding evidence which conforms with the normal logic
that applies on the plane in which we exist. We are not were we
think we are. It's not possible to correctly perceive the
universe from our plane of existence without first knowing what
to expect.

-----

Max Keon