🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <4jf83a$phv@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, M <anon1167@nyx10.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>
>I am on my second postdoc and want to escape into the real world, but 
>there is one small problem.  In order to get this position, I had to sign 
>a "repayment agreement".  This must be something new, because I did not 
>have to sign one at my first post-doc.  Basically, it states for each 

If you're supported off something other than a federal (e.g. NIH) 
training grant, then ignore my response and consult a lawyer. If
you are refering to a federal training grant, then hopefully it
will be of some use. You may still need the lawyer though :)

Note: None of this is legal advice but since I have been supported
off a training grant and know others who have gotten out of monetary
payback, I'm familiar with the process and the implications.

FIrst, there is nothing new about payback agreements. If you didn't
sign a payback agreement during your first post-doc, then the nature 
of your funding likely had something to do with that. If you were 
supported off a grant made to your mentor, then you aren't required
to "pay back" any time. If you were supported by a competitive (e.g.
NRSA) fellowship made directly to you, then you aren't bound by a 
payback agreement. However, a training grant awarded to an institution
is a different story. If you're supported off of an NIH training 
grant, you will be asked to sign a payback agreement and you will 
be required to pay back an amount of time OR a monetary amount 
determined by the equation that you should have been informed of 
at the time you signed the agreement.If you do neither, you are 
pretty much subject to the same grief you'd get for defaulting on a 
student loan. At best, you may have your wages garnished. At worst,
I don't even want to think of the consequences.

No, it doesn't make sense. No, I can't figure out why training grant
support is subject to payback while other forms of post-doctoral 
support from the same source are not. However, keep in mind that 
we're talking about the federal government here :(



>month I work as a postdoc, up to one year, I incur a liability to repay 
>the money should I decide to leave the field and work in something other 
>than medical or health related teaching or research.  For each month 
>after one year, the liability is removed, until at 2 years, there is no 
>repayment liability.  If I were to leave now, after 7 months, I would 
>have to repay 7/12 of what I been paid so far, or about $15,000.


If, indeed, you're talking about training grant money then either 
you're mistaken about this, the terms have changed since I was on
a training grant or you've mistyped.

The first year of work you perform (assuming that it satisfies the
conditions of "payback") IS applicable to payback time. Perhaps
you're confusing the "one year" rule with the one year of training grant 
that isn't subject to payback? For example, if you were supported off
a training grant for one year, you don't owe any payback time regardless
of the nature of your work afterwards. If you were supported for 2 years
then you need to pay back one year and if you were supported for 3 years
(the maximum) then you need to pay back 2 years. I was supported off
a training grant for 2 1/2 years and had to account for only 18 months
of time and those were the 18 months immediately after the termination
of my training grant support. I am certain of this because I kept all
the documentation the NIH sent me, including the "balance" sheets with
the amount of time remaining before I satisfied the terms of the 
entire payback agreement.

If I understand you correctly, you've been on the grant for 7 months.
If this is the case, then you have little to worry about unless you
end up staying on beyond a total of 12 months. In other words, check
with the training grant administrator to make sure I'm correct about 
this (I'm 99% certain that I am) and find a job ASAP or try to see if
your mentor can (or is willing) to move you onto another funding source
before you hit the 12 month mark. If you no longer have the paperwork,
get the equation determining the amount of payback time or financial 
liability you are responsible for from the training grant administrator
(the person who had you sign the agreement to begin with). One good 
thing about moving to another funding source ASAP is that even post-doctoral
time qualifies as payback service, as long as you've come off the training
grant (one month of post-doctoral work under your mentor's own NIH 
grant will pay off one month of NIH training grant time; go figure!)


>
>So, my question is, does anyone have any experience with this?  Is it 
>possbile to get out of it?  I have no interest in doing research any 
>more, and teaching would be ok, but finding a job would probably be a 
>problem.
>
>


Since I had no desire to leave research, I satisfied the terms of
the payback agreement without incident. The only inconvenience was my
having to give the government a statement of my activities following
the period of training grant support yearly, until the payback period was
over.

I've given you the bad news so far. The good news is that there is more
laxity in what is considered "payback worthy" work than you appear to
think there is and research and teaching are not the only forms of 
work that will satisfy the terms of a payback agreement. They may be
the easiest to pass by The Powers That Be, but they aren't the only
ones. I have known others supported off of training grants who managed
to get out of payback agreements with other forms of work, provided that 
they could demonstrate that their post-doctoral training is in some
way important to their new work. For example, one post-doc supported off
a training grant in a lab I was in joined a consulting firm that
researched startup biotech companies for investment firms. This work
was deemed appropriate for payback. What I don't recall is whether or
not this was easy (he never complained about it to me if the NIH gave
him a hard time about it) or if he required the services of a lawyer to
get it through. I do recall him saying (not a verbatim quote) that 
there are so many loopholes in the payback agreement that you'd probably
have to go into basket-weaving to get screwed. 

In any event, don't panic just yet. It might be better to determine 
exactly what it is you plan to do when you leave your post-doctoral
position and consult a lawyer if you're concerned about finding a 
"scientific angle" to your new work. However, in the future, you may
want to consider being more careful about the contracts you sign, 
particularly when you're dealing with the government. It wasn't a 
very good idea to worry about the implications of signing the agreement
after rather than before you signed it.

Again, if you're talking about something other than a government agency,
then the information I just gave you may be worthless :)



Stacy