🚀 go-pugleaf

On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> I struggled for a long time, in my younger years, trying to
> understand the basic doctrines, the core beliefs, the philosophies,
> the essence and contradictions in Old versus New Testament, the
> behavior of warrior Christian nations wreaking havoc in non-Christian
> colonies (and still conducting horrible wars on non-Christian people
> in Asia), Genesis, Noah, the many other stories in the Bible, etc..
>
> Then slowly I came to understand several truths described below,
> which eventually enabled me to gradually throw off the yoke,
> the shackles and the blinders of a long childhood indoctrination in
> Christianity, and  I  WAS  FREE ----- FOREVER:
>
> 1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
> by humans, not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
> ideas and concepts that evolved and were then accepted as
> the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life, the (new) gospel,
> the (new) 'true' religion.
>
> 2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
> Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
> was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
> suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
>
> If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
> being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
> or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
>
> This means:
> All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul.  As I
> don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
> of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
> A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
> we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') are immortal and will
> exist forever.
>
> We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
> We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
> And we can't avoid to fabricate a reason for our existence.
>
> 3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
> the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
> when social groups evolved culturally:  To keep individual behavior
> in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
> its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
>
> 4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
> to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
> already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
>
> That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
> point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
> or disobey.  That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
> to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
> (suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
>
> The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
> sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea of hope and redemption
> and forgiveness arose from much older pagan religions that had human
> sacrifices at their core. The ultimate sacrifice for redemption was
> to offer up your own son, as in the Abraham-Isaac story. That's why
> 'man' eventually came up with the idea that Christ - the Son - was
> sacrificed by the Father and died for the sins of all mankind.
>
> As our species homo sapiens evolved over millions of years, there was
> never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
> God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
> in the garden of Eden never happened.  That also means a 'fall' e.g.
> a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
> of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
> has no basis in fact.  Our ancestors millions of years ago did
> not have the intellectual capacity nor the choice to obey or disobey.
>
> 5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
> Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
> not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
> it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
> 4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
>
> Also there are over 100-200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
> with a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the visible
> universe, containing billions of inhabited planets. It is illogical
> to assume that God sacrificed his son on billions of planets.
>
> 6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
> religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life
> and death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
> finally into structured beliefs = religion.
>
> That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of existing
> religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations are
> created all the time, all over the world. There are always new
> thinkers with new ideas, creative thinkers who strongly reject the
> older ideas.
>
> 7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
> 'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
> made.
>
> As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
> a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
> God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
> = interferes in our world) exists.
>
> 8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
> that:   GOD IS ABSENT,  IS DEAD  OR  DOES NOT EXIST.
>
> As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
> decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
> other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
> universes, there is only one conclusion left:
>
> There is no immaterial God applying material forces on or into
> our physical environment.
>
> That means all physical and chemical occurrences can be
> explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
> supernatural and  'immaterial'  being capable of and actively
> acting on matter.  Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
> God does not exist and was made up.
>
> You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
> You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
> 'one' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
>
> Example:
> In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
> were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 died).
> 'God' did not do it.
> 'Satan' did not do it.
> Humans did not do it.
> The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
> which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
> volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
> natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
> Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
> He did not cause it, he did not prevent it.
>
> 9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
> profound mystery of all
>
> --- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST'  ----
>
> does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
> Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
> and rules and monitors everything.
>
> In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
> In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
> resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
> more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
> and beliefs as described in 'holy' books.  Religions always consist
> of a mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories, taboos,
> legends, laws, rules, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
> explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
> and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
> more rational explanations.
>
> That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
> it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
> of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
> cannot  're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
> explanation of life, or even reform itself into a more rational
> philosophy of life.
>
> So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
> explanations for life and death, made by men and women
> who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
>
> The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
> fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
> will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
> slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
> will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
> as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
> acceptable to more and more people.
>
> 10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
>
> o   the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
> o   the scientific/rational approach or persona
>
> Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
> on ancient and fixed beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with
> smaller and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
> or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
>
> There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
> on longer terms science and associated education
> will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
>
> However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
> even when becoming unsatisfactory to many more people, e.g. if
> and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
> as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
> science and the wonders, the size and the unbelievable beauty
> and complexity of the physical universe.
>
> But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
> by nature or by scientific exploration and thought. They do
> get enthralled by food, drink, sex, entertainment and the
> accumulation of material possessions:
> The absence or substitute for or even opposite of spirituality.
>
> The basic science-religion conflict is also why so many religions,
> including Christianity and Islam, in their core must stay so anti-
> science. They can never embrace a much more rational belief
> system that so clearly exposes the phallacies in their inherited
> belief system.
>
> Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
>
> Instead of believing in fixed philosophies, laws and taboos
> created by men and women many hundreds and even thousands
> of years ago, who did not know any better (not their fault),
> it is much better to determine our own beliefs and truths.
> That will enable us to leave behind outdated laws, fears,
> prejudices, misconceptions, racism, intolerance,
> supremacy feelings, and ancient ideas about death,
> heaven, hell, sin, soul, etc.
>
> That freedom will jettison all the religious garbage that is
REPLY:  Perhaps you just didnt get your many questions answered then.
In the book :"IDont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist' by Dr. Norman
Geisler , he detailed the evidence for Christ, God, absoloute moral
laws, the new testament, the old testament, heaven, hell, etc... in
very clear terms . In addition, he fairly treats the Atheism Faith  as
he describes the enourmous faith an atheist must have to deny a
personal Creator.  Its the book that even atheists say is very very
compelling (only that their WILL vetos it).  If  youre still truly
interested in seeking the truth, it can be obtained inexpensively at
www.impactapologetics.com  .  If money is a bit tight for you at this
christmas time, i would consider it a pleasure to send you one as my
Christmas gift to you.   Regards.