🚀 go-pugleaf

On Dec 26, 9:13�am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Dec 24, 11:20 pm, "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I struggled for a long time, in my younger years, trying to
> > understand the basic doctrines, the core beliefs, the philosophies,
> > the essence and contradictions in Old versus New Testament, the
> > behavior of warrior Christian nations wreaking havoc in non-Christian
> > colonies (and still conducting horrible wars on non-Christian people
> > in Asia), Genesis, Noah, the many other stories in the Bible, etc..
>
> > Then slowly I came to understand several truths described below,
> > which eventually enabled me to gradually throw off the yoke,
> > the shackles and the blinders of a long childhood indoctrination in
> > Christianity, and �I �WAS �FREE ----- FOREVER:
>
> > 1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
> > by humans, not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
> > ideas and concepts that evolved and were then accepted as
> > the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life, the (new) gospel,
> > the (new) 'true' religion.
>
> > 2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
> > Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
> > was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
> > suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
>
> > If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
> > being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
> > or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
>
> > This means:
> > All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. �As I
> > don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
> > of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
> > A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
> > we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') are immortal and will
> > exist forever.
>
> > We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
> > We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
> > And we can't avoid to fabricate a reason for our existence.
>
> > 3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
> > the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
> > when social groups evolved culturally: �To keep individual behavior
> > in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
> > its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
>
> > 4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
> > to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
> > already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
>
> > That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
> > point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
> > or disobey. �That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
> > to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
> > (suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
>
> > The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
> > sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea of hope and redemption
> > and forgiveness arose from much older pagan religions that had human
> > sacrifices at their core. The ultimate sacrifice for redemption was
> > to offer up your own son, as in the Abraham-Isaac story. That's why
> > 'man' eventually came up with the idea that Christ - the Son - was
> > sacrificed by the Father and died for the sins of all mankind.
>
> > As our species homo sapiens evolved over millions of years, there was
> > never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
> > God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
> > in the garden of Eden never happened. �That also means a 'fall' e.g.
> > a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
> > of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
> > has no basis in fact. �Our ancestors millions of years ago did
> > not have the intellectual capacity nor the choice to obey or disobey.
>
> > 5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
> > Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
> > not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
> > it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
> > 4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
>
> > Also there are over 100-200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
> > with a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the visible
> > universe, containing billions of inhabited planets. It is illogical
> > to assume that God sacrificed his son on billions of planets.
>
> > 6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
> > religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life
> > and death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
> > finally into structured beliefs = religion.
>
> > That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of existing
> > religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations are
> > created all the time, all over the world. There are always new
> > thinkers with new ideas, creative thinkers who strongly reject the
> > older ideas.
>
> > 7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
> > 'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
> > made.
>
> > As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
> > a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
> > God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
> > = interferes in our world) exists.
>
> > 8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
> > that: � GOD IS ABSENT, �IS DEAD �OR �DOES NOT EXIST.
>
> > As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
> > decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
> > other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
> > universes, there is only one conclusion left:
>
> > There is no immaterial God applying material forces on or into
> > our physical environment.
>
> > That means all physical and chemical occurrences can be
> > explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
> > supernatural and �'immaterial' �being capable of and actively
> > acting on matter. �Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
> > God does not exist and was made up.
>
> > You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
> > You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
> > 'one' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
>
> > Example:
> > In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
> > were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 died).
> > 'God' did not do it.
> > 'Satan' did not do it.
> > Humans did not do it.
> > The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
> > which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
> > volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
> > natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
> > Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
> > He did not cause it, he did not prevent it.
>
> > 9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
> > profound mystery of all
>
> > --- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' �----
>
> > does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
> > Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
> > and rules and monitors everything.
>
> > In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
> > In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
> > resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
> > more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
> > and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. �Religions always consist
> > of a mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories, taboos,
> > legends, laws, rules, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
> > explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
> > and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
> > more rational explanations.
>
> > That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
> > it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
> > of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
> > cannot �'re-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
> > explanation of life, or even reform itself into a more rational
> > philosophy of life.
>
> > So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
> > explanations for life and death, made by men and women
> > who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
>
> > The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
> > fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
> > will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
> > slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
> > will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
> > as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
> > acceptable to more and more people.
>
> > 10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
>
> > o � the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
> > o � the scientific/rational approach or persona
>
> > Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
> > on ancient and fixed beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with
> > smaller and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
> > or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
>
> > There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
> > on longer terms science and associated education
> > will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
>
> > However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
> > even when becoming unsatisfactory to many more people, e.g. if
> > and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
> > as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
> > science and the wonders, the size and the unbelievable beauty
> > and complexity of the physical universe.
>
> > But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
> > by nature or by scientific exploration and thought. They do
> > get enthralled by food, drink, sex, entertainment and the
>
> ...
>
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They like to fantasize what the world would be like if religion would
never have been invented.

Atheists look at this topic with tunnel vision

The facts are this: when people are devoid of religion / spiritual
values...they generally stink as humans.

Sure Christians do bad things, so do all practitioners in other
religions. But many of these religious practitioners also do good
things.

You never see atheists taking up charitable works and feeding and
clothing the poor in any organized way as Christians do.

There may be the odd atheists philanthropists here or there, but
nothing organized like Christians charitable organizations.

I wrote to the president of American Atheists, UK Atheists, the
Secular Humanism Foundation, Sam Harris and others about this very
topic and none had the courtesy to reply.

Shows how much interest atheists really have in humanity.

No, I prefer to keep things as they are and keep religions, even with
all their imperfections.

I believe religions do more good than harm. I shudder to think what
the world would be like if it was composed solely of atheists.

The many countries that the US has been at war with and subsequently
lost the war to can be most grateful we were not an atheist country.

If we were a country that did not apply Christian principles to our
captors millions more would have been killed.

Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
cleansing rather than applying charity.

Atheist like to claim religion killed so many people...well without
religion in world the killings would have been much worse.

When I discussed Christian principles one time an Atheist piped up to
say "the Christians have no principles," and "Jesus was a fabled
creation of the Christians."

When we sperate the personalities from the principles it makes looking
at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian principles I
speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the golden rule,
where the emphasis is on principles and not on the personalities of
the church.

For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these Christian
principles are universal truths in their own right if one desires to
live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others in this
world.

"The Corporal Works of Mercy"

To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To harbour the harbourless
To visit the sick
To ransom the captive
To bury the dead

"The Spiritual Works of Mercy"

To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners
To bear wrongs patiently
To forgive offenses willingly
To comfort the afflicted
To pray for the living and the dead

You see, by applying the rule of reciprocity or rule of opposites we
can see if we were in these positions of the needy mentioned above, we
would like such charity bestowed on us for the most part. What about
our children, parents and loved ones? Wouldn't we wish the same for
them? We have no loved ones? What about our neighbors? The Christian
ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be treated. As we
give ~ so we receive.

Even if an atheist, as we give peace - we receive inner peace as many
of the tools I mentioned above do not require belief in God, they only
requirement is a desire to be at peace and to bring peace to others.
This is the Christian doctrine in a nutshell, when we put principles
before personalities.

As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well. As James Allen wrote in "As
a man Thinketh" ~ To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to
patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are
the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of
peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their
possessor."

This is universal truth that transcends man made religions. Remember,
we do not have to do it perfectly. Just look for direction and forget
perfection - for perfection or range is of the ego and form is of the
soul. There are many tools for peace within the worlds spiritual
paths, no one said these paths are perfect, in fact, it was once said
that walking the spiritual path is akin to walking on a razors edge.

But if we bother to be honest, non prejudicial and to look, we can
find tools that can help us be at peace whether atheist, agnostic or
believer.

Again, when people are devoid of religion...they generally stink as
humans.

Until atheism can replace theist based religion as a VIABLE and REAL
way to inner peace, with a reverence of humanity, it can never take
over the world and extinguish religion.

When you get rid of one thing, it makes room for another.

Sure atheist can succeed at pointing to the flaws of religious
thought, but they have nothing to replace the flaws with.

So theists choose the lesser of two evils while on earth, with the
hopes of hitting the jackpot in the hereafter.

When atheists become successes at 'the religion of humanity,' you may
become more successful at replacing theist based religion.

Until that time..."a mans mind may be likened to a garden which may be
intelligently cultivated or allowed to run wild; but whether
cultivated or neglected, it must and will bring forth. If no useful
seeds are put into it, then an abundance of useless 'weed seeds' will
fall therein and will continue to produce their kind." ~ James Allen

And religion does a good job at controlling the weeds.

In its history, organized atheism has never succeeded at replacing
religion with real humanity and compassion.

The atheists talk a good story, but atheists fail miserably when it
comes to practical application of the 'peace talk.'

And really the vast majority of atheists don't even have 'the talk' to
spout, since they have no semblance of inner peace themselves in order
to form a basis of 'lip service' to pontificate.

Don't know what I mean?

I'm saying that most atheists are too ignorant when the subject turns
to inner peace to even lie about or pretend that they know anything
about the subject.

Another reason atheists will never win, is in general it takes hatred
to fuel atheism if one is a dogmatic, militant atheist.

Hatred blinds one to peace.

When you lose the hatred and militant foundation, then you do not wish
to destroy others or their religion....you are at peace to let them be
religious.

Sure you do not let others destroy you with religion, you tell them
the facts that they run by faith, so do not get too high and mighty
and start forcing you into the religion against your will.

But you only fight in a measured way of self defense, instead of the
offensive atheists that sets out to destroy 'all faith based beliefs'
just for the sheer joy of hurting another.

Sure tearing others down appeals to one's ego and pride, but so did
torturing insects when we were kids. When we grow up we need a
different way to find self worth.

As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well.

As you give so you receive.

Is that from the bible or karma?

No, it is just universal law.

Do we like to be beaten down?

Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down others, we are headed
in a direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well
as others peace.

It takes no energy from me to pass something by and leave it alone in
peace. But it takes my energy as well as my peace to pick something up
to destroy it.

When I posted this paragraph earlier, an atheist piped to accuse me of
hypocrisy, telling me that I destroy a potato when I pick it up to eat
it, so I am a liar.

Natural law dictates I must eat, but there is no law that says I must
spew venom from my mouth to destroy others.

If atheists can get over fishing for red herrings and get onto bigger
fish to fry they will see a world of difference in their peace
practice.

The destruction of inner peace by destroying potatoes comes about when
I destroy my neighbors crop field of potatoes by poisoning them to
bankrupt him in order to take over his farmland...it does not come
about by eating a potato.

The God of Nature gives me potatoes to eat, the God of Inner Peace
tells me to not eat potatoes in excess or to destroy others if I wish
to be at peace. I cannot see either God, I know not how these God's
work, I just know they are and I can abide by their guidance or be
defiant to these Gods and end up destroying my life and the lives of
others.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=342.0


Yes, there are theists that stink. See: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html

I will be the first to admit that religion has done lots of harm but I
will also say religion done lots of right.

And just as the question of God cannot be answered with any certainty,
so goes the question of whether the world would have been better off
without religion or not.

It is a question that cannot be answered like it was in the movie
"It's a Wonderful life.'

But lets look at the facts and see that the vast, vast majority of
people are theists or believe in hereafter, so the pot is enormous
that we draw from when we pull out examples of evildoing theists that
the atheists like to parade around.

The USA was founded with God in the details. I suggest atheists that
hate a religious based country like the USA move to China or Russia.
Then you can live your dream right now, in your God free country.

In China, it was a common practice to execute political prisoners with
one bullet to the head...then they sent the bill for the bullet to the
family of the executed prisoner. That is where separation of state and
religion can lead a country. Once religion is out of politics, then
the only thing left in control is ego.

They say Hitler was a Catholic?

I don't know if he was Catholic or not.

I do know that Hitler did not practice even the most basic tenants of
Christianity.

It takes more than lip service to be a 'practicing' Catholic,
Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or Hebrew follower.


See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=380.0


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b87b/cf400bdf88ba1701?lnk=gst&q=conundrum&rnum=7&hl=en#cf400bdf88ba1701

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0

Now, some 'spiritually based atheist's can far surpasses many theists
in kindness and virtue many times...so it just depends on what 'type
of atheist' you are talking about? But these sort of atheists are very
rare to encounter, as spiritual values and atheism do not generally
mix.

"People that practice religion are worried about going to hell -
people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and don't
want to go back."

A lot of atheists I run into make their intellect their God. They do
not know that academic smarts are not the same as peace smarts. Until
they can transcend their ego they will never find the answer (peace)
they seek.

 It is the same for those that think money is all that is standing
between them and happiness.

So it goes for the ego and intellect based person that is devoid of
spiritual values.

And if the atheists is honest they will see they do not run their
lives solely by logic and are no better than the theist that runs
their lives by faith.

No, logic only goes so far in life. For what is logical is not always
practical when it comes to humans ... is it?

Always remember...one thing only goes so far with giving a person a
good life. Seek balance.

Spiritual growth as well as humans are not perfect - but we can all do
better at being humans if we try to be more humane.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

There are many flavors of atheists...natural atheists, personal
atheists, explicit atheists, implicit atheists weak atheists, strong
atheists, discovery atheists, reactionary atheists, indoctrinated
atheists and of course the bad ass atheists with attitude aka BAAWA
varieties.

But the defining characteristic that leads an atheist to peace is
whether they are a 'spiritual based atheist' or 'defiance based
atheist.''

The business of humanism is 'all our business' if we with to live life
at peace. Egocentricity is not good for spiritual work and we need to
be open to others ideas and embrace them as nourishment for your
growth and sustenance for life - as no one person is god.

As a freethinking agnostic I AM FREE to look for truth wherever the
road takes me. I discriminate against no one. As such, I study with
the Christians, the Buddhists, the Jews, the Muslims, the Taoists and
even find truth as I study with the atheists.

When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will
reap self destruction of inner peace.



Take care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2