🚀 go-pugleaf

You nice folks have to start thinking like a combination of Warren
Buffet and Bigelow for this to work, so stop anti-thinking like such a
naysay wuss that can't possibly contribute a single positive
consideration.  You folks also need to stop asking such silly
questions and instead come up with a whole lot better answers and a
few of your very own better ideas, and then run off a few of those
spiffy supercomputer simulations.

Around this world there's at least a hundred such nifty supercomputers
with all of the necessary software, that has been publicly bought and
paid for, and in our case that investment has been good for having
cost us several times over.  So there's no valid excuse for not
knowing the specific outcome of a given idea or application once given
in full 3D animation, along with rich HDTV color and surround sound.
Even on behalf of those pesky interstellar interactions, of
accomplishing Clarke Station or of my robust LSE-CM/ISS and tether
dipole that's taking the full advantage of our moon's interactive L1
has been fully simulation doable for decades.  Instead, many of our
best supercomputers are those busy creating "The Simpsons" and loads
of other silly but eye popping entertainment whenever they're not
snooping and number crunching on behalf of either spying upon us or
having been excluding evidence that might otherwise share too much
truth.

This is not a topic for the typical naysayer or closed mindset of an
official rusemaster that's continually in official denial, as well as
without a speck of remorse.  This VL2 outpost thing is about
accomplishing lots of good stuff within the best available spec and
resources, therefore it's not about our having to reinvent the wheel
or otherwise exceeding the limits of well enough proven technology, or
even for having to exceed the limits of our frail DNA.

This relatively cool VL2 POOF City of initially 5 Bigelow Aerospace /
Nautilus units is well enough within existing capability, and as such
it can be configured and deployed as humanly safe enough for
accommodating clients that desire or perhaps need to get as far off-
world as possible for nearly 2 spendy years at a whack.

On Apr 23, 8:08 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
<e...@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote:
> The cited values were from various vendors.  Deep dish
> pizzas tend to have more calories; they also weigh more
> and therefore cost more to boost.
So what?  As I'd said, the rich are only getting literally bloody
richer, and then most likely these various sponsors (including them
makers of Deep Dish Pizza and Beer) are going to pay big time for
having their stuff onboard or in whatever way utilized, such as good
old Ductape and those mega load diapers.  There's at least a hundred
such commercial products that could have to competitively pay for
their being utilized.  How's that for a business plan of compensation
by just the commercial product vendor phase?

>
> If one assumes a 1 kg boosted into orbit, one requires 32
> megajoules just to kick it around at 8 km/s.  That's $0.89
> if one assumes $0.10 per kWh, but the problem is that we
> don't have real good rockets.  Anyone real familiar with
> the Rocket Equation:
>
> v_f = v_i + v_e * log(M_i/M_f)
>
> and with current technology (v_e = 2500 m/s) will instantly notice that
> M_i/M_f gets ridiculously big -- in this case, one gets
>
> M_i/M_f = exp(8/2.5) = 24.5
>
> so now that kg costs $21.83 to get into orbit.  Not bad, but
> there's an awful lot of support equipment supporting that kg.

But that energy is getting dirt cheap in China and India, and I
believe it's still not even a tenth the cost in Russia (no wonder
they're getting so much more accomplished).

>From what little I can tell, that's obviously way better launch
results than is likely real-world doable, but you are correct in that
a great deal R&D plus the infrastructure and continual ground support
is involved in addition to the relatively inefficient energy demands
of tossing stuff away from Earth, similar but far less spendy than the
horrific cost of our having mutually perpetrated a cold war, of such
having taken away countless lives, causing much in global inflation,
diverting decades worth of invaluable opportunity, and at the same
time having cost us trillions per decade.  Of course now we have
created yet another rather serious energy shortage, we are on the
Muslim no-fly shit list, and otherwise having obtained a nasty butt
load of pollution and global warming to thank for some of that
foolishness.

Fortunately, the inert GLOW of a given rocket w/payload isn't nearly
as bad off as it used to be in that hocus-pocus cold war Saturn V
era.  All it takes is a little time and a healthy surplus of energy
that's made into a fully fueled rocket and we're good to go.

> Well do it, then; submit a business plan to a venture capitalist.  What
> are you hanging around here for? :-)
-
> Like I said...venture capitalists.  A good business plan is a must.

If you'd care to help, I'd certainly appreciate that effort, as I do
agree that a good business plan with as little government involvement
as possible is what's needed.  Are your services or those of whomever
we'd dare trust for hire?

Unlike yourself and especially of most others in Usenet naysay land,
I'm not the least bit all knowing, and I do not have those inside
connections that'll kick sufficient venture capitalistic butt.  In the
mean time, I'm still learning and looking for those few souls capable
of independently thinking, and if at all possible thinking a little
outside the box becuause, that's exactly what it's going to
constructively take before this is VL2 thing gets taken seriously
enough.  Thus far, the official NASA uplink.space.com community of
damage-control spooks and moles hasn't exactly taken one positive step
in the right direction, about the same as for all of the skewed side-
steps and topic diversion tactics taken by those clowns in charge of
promoting Usenet's role in accomplishing more of the same mainstream
hypology and/or damage control.  The 0.1% of Usenet that actually has
an honest to god brain, other than what's between a pair of
infomercial spewing butt-cheeks, is actually all that's necessary, yet
the ongoing gauntlet of all that mainstream can manage to toss their
infomercial flak at us, as you folks damn well know, is nearly
insurmountable.

-

I might as well contribute the following as a final polished update,
as to what took 3+ times getting posted into this silly but otherwise
supposedly all-knowing usenet that yourself and most others of your
kind see absolutely nothing the least bit wrong with its past, present
or future of having been operating so nondisclosure or need-to-know MI/
NSA cult like.

I'd posted this one three previous times, and with that effort each
time getting the official GOOGLE/Usenet "Your post was successful"
indication, and yet only the last one ever got into the index of my
very own topic.  Therefore, quite obviously we clearly have some
stealth and/or robo moderation taking place, which again you folks see
as nothing the least bit improper, or rather business as usual.

On Apr 22, 12:16 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
<e...@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote:
> Five?  How big are each of these units, physically?  How many humans
> per unit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigelow_Aerospace
Bigelow Aerospace / Nautilus (aka POOF)
>
> As for a 19 months supply of beer and pizza -- that sounds like quite a
> bit.  Assuming a rate of consumption of 2000 calories per solar day,
> a single 14" cheese pizza will probably run 2290-2900, depending on
> vendor, and have dimensions 14" round by maybe 1/4" -- or 2.5 liters of
> pizza.  Bread density is probably 0.34 g/cm^3 or 340 kg/m^3.
> 19 months is about 580 days.  This works out to 500 kg of pizza per
> astronaut, though admittedly I'm doing a lot of handwaving.
>
> As for beer, 2 12 ounce cans per day might be enough.  (I assume water
> is recycled.)  That works out to 400 liters or 400 kg of beer.

Obviously you've never had a Northlake Tavern pizza, as you could
easily get 4000 calories out of just one of their robust 14" pies.

One of these POOFs would likely become their mess hall and pantry,
plus master beer keg.  Their transporter or at least their what-if
OOPS! Plan-B escape craft would likely stay for the duration, so
that's offering a good 6th habitat that's worth something more
substantial than a given POOF.  Make that 4 12 once beers/soul/day and
you've got yourself a deal (plus more of whatever, if that's what it
takes for attracting those big spenders).

A few robotic re-supply missions (within +/- a couple of months from
each nearby pass) could take care of those special orders.  Remember
that better than 85% of the time VL2 will remain within direct S-Band
or perhaps via laser quantum/FM packet communications, therefore no
possible shortage of smut from home, or that of broadcasting our POOF
city reality show back to Earth.  With a sufficiently tethered offset
transceiver pod, or simply an orbital robotic transponder or two,
there could just as easily be 100% two-way essential communications
out from behind Sol (depending on the quality of such a transponder
could even include a full two-way HDTV broadcasting link or two).

>
> > I would not be all that surprized at having to initially invest $100
> > billion, although that amount would include a great deal of secondary
> > science and gateway (do-everything space depot) capability.
>
> > Of Russian or perhaps a China launch service should greatly minimize
> > the deployment cost (not a tenth as spendy per tonne as anything
> > NASA).
>
> The current price is $20M per human for low earth orbit
> boost; this is from the Russians.  If one assumes the
> human is 100 kg (which is probably stretching it, but
> I'm a hopeful sort and weigh about 100 kg :-) ) ) that's
> $200,000/kg.

There's a 10 fold profit margin built into that Russian $20M/human.
Them tricky Russians were always the smart ones about doing nifty
sorts of stuff in space related matters, wernt they.

Besides, it's looking good that China or perhaps India will likely get
their wholesale VL2 deployment net cost down to well below $10,000/kg
for all that's inert(w/o DNA), and perhaps not much worse off than
$20,000/kg on behalf of whatever human cargo (+ pizza and beer).
Therefore, even at the usual 10 fold mark up, it's doable.

Remember that it's not just the lower cost of their energy, but the
availability that's worth more than anything NASA or any other US
governmental agency has at their disposal.  In other words, the USofA
is nearly energy broke, other than our having to burn the spendy
imported forms of energy.

>
> Since escape velocity requires twice as much energy as low earth orbit,
> one has to double it to $400,000/kg, and possibly double it twice
> more (he has to get there and back, after all), to $1.6M/kg.  This
> works out to $1.6B per human per trip, all supplies considered.

I think is more like something better than an extra 2.65 fold as much
required for getting away from LEO, that is unless you've got nothing
but time on your hands, plus enough rad-hard DNA for that pesky trek
through them Van Allen badlands, but then so what?  For some it'll
only be a one-way ticket to ride, and the rich are clearly only
getting a whole lot richer, arnt they.

>
> > A total of perhaps 6 missions should accomplish the task, with the 6th
> > mission including those first of 10 clients that'll pay $100 million
> > each for their one way (nonrefundable) ticket.
>
> > There would be commercial and scientific sponsors picking up nearly if
> > not better than 50% of the initial outlay plus operational tab.  Those
> > five POOFs could accommodate as many as 20 clients, plus a small crew
> > of perhaps not more than five.
>
> OK.  So who's going to come up with the initial investment?

As I'd said, any number of commercial sponsors (including an eye
popping TV reality show), of various scientific backings, plus all the
loot we can get away with charging our crazy but otherwise rich ENRON/
Exxon or fat old and stinking oil rich Dick Cheney clients.  For the
$100 billion kick start, we could take out a World Bank advance as
based entirely upon my good faith IOU.  Compared to our resident LLPOF
warlord(GW Bush) that has been getting his dirty born-again hands on
nearly countless hundreds of billions (along with all the collateral
damage and 650,000+ dead Muslims to prove it), whereas I'm more than
worth it and a whole lot less lethal, how about yourself?

I'd also start selling off shares in Venus futures, intended for
sharing in whatever interplanetary commerce, that which might just as
likely evolve and come to depend upon our VL2 POOF city as their go
between pitstop or gateway.  VL2 should also remain out of range of
whatever Venusian SAMs or rather beyond their rigid airship to
satellite terminating capability, although I'd still like having a few
TRW/Raytheon class of ABL cannons at POOF city's disposal, because you
never know when our next resident LLPOF warlord is going postal by way
of accusing those nice Venusian Muslims or perhaps Cathar sleeper
cells of having WMD, especially if there's oil or that of a nearly
unlimited cache of 90 proof yellowcake to being had.
-
Brad Guth